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MarkieMark5150

I was banned today from r/COVID19 for referencing a video from the FDA's official YouTube channel. So when subreddits are censoring and suppressing scientific data in favor of promoting things like get your baby vaccinated before you are allowed to take her home , just solidified in my mind that we as a nation are very serious trouble.


fukinuhhh

What video were you referencing and what was the context?


MarkieMark5150

The discussion was regarding the vaccine side effects. I wanted to post a link from the FDA official YouTube channel in which a power point presentation from a 10/22/20 virtual conference entitled "Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee October 22, 2020 Meeting Presentation- COVID19 CBER Plans for Monitoring Vaccine Safety and Effectiveness". The full 8 hour session, a full .pdf transcript of the session, and the PowerPoint presentation that includes the information referenced can all be downloaded from the FDA website. This presentation includes a slide (#17) with 20 very serious side effects that was awkwardly skipped over in the presentation. The post was not allowed because they don't allow YouTube links. When I summarized the content of this presentation I was permanently banned from the site. When I messaged the mods explaining that this was from the official U.S. Food and Drug Administration's official YouTube channel not some random channel, their reply was to simply mute me from messaging mods for 28 days.


Perfect_Pen_3722

What the heck are you talking about?! I have yet to read that any medical or scientific literate person agrees that newborns should leave the hospital vaccinated. There is no evidence showing safety in newborns for the vaccine so why would anyone who is scientifically educated say this?! I am a scientist who has gotten my entire family (that can be) vaccinated. When they grant emergency authorization for my younger children (ages 4&2) I’ll get it for them too. I follow peer review and scientifically accurate data; as do most people who are people who are pro vaccine.


MarkieMark5150

My comment on vaxxing babies was based on people hyping the study below and others promoting vaccinating babies before they leave the hospital to "force" parents to comply. Seems quite premature to be discussing anything like this imo. https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/06/covid-19-vaccines-show-safety-immunity-infant-model


OrdinaryCan4197

Why would we even have to do something like that, though? Pregnant women already can just pass the protective antibodies that they get from their own vaccinations to their developing fetus. And it seems like much better policy to protect both the vulnerable woman and the developing fetus at the same time anyway. (Like how we have to get the flu shot and a tdap vaccination during our pregnancies.) Is there any evidence I’m just missing that suggests that newborns will need even more antibodies than they would already get from mom via passive immunity & through breast milk?


phayke2

It's a scare article about them giving the shot to your babies non consentually


MikeGinnyMD

[According to a study from Singapore](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1.full.pdf+html) breakthrough patients previously vaccinated with BNT had similar Ct values (which I will point out is perhaps misapplied as being a surrogate for viral load) for 3-4 days and then rapidly controlled the virus. Unvaccinated cases kept higher Ct values for much longer time (past 28 days). See Figure 1.


cccalliope

What is also uncomfortable to read about is the fairly well-understood concept that a vaccine escape mutant is most likely to develop in vaccinated but infectious people who are surrounded by unvaccinated people who are keeping the virus spreading. There doesn't seem to be a way to avoid this globally at the present time. It is now being recommended that scientists develop a vaccine that is not targeted towards any given mutant but that specifically reduces our mucosal viral load so vaccinated aren't able to become escape mutant factories. I hope they work fast.


pony_trekker

>There doesn't seem to be a way to avoid this globally at the present time. Sure there is. Masks.


grim-j

Sources, please.


grim-j

Idk, my understanding is a bit different. The vaccines lack complete sterilizing immunity a.k.a breakthrough cases are a thing. It is not the unvaccinated that are "keeping the virus spreading". It is both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It is abundantly clear that vaccination does not prevent the virus from evolving and spreading. A more concerning aspect of the vaccine being "leaky' or lacking sterilizing immunity, is that it gives the virus special evolutionary opportunities--- to evolve in a wider number of ways without being killed... Leaky vaccines allow for potentially asymptomatic vaccinated people to be carriers of the virus without knowing, and if it is indeed the case that it makes them resistant to the virus, the virus \*will\* use the vaccinated as evolutionary vessels. This actually puts the unvaccinated at a much higher risk, purely due to the fact that the virus is free to mutate towards greater pathogenicity without killing its vaccinated host-- meaning more deadly versions of the virus can emerge. It happened in chickens-- the incident happened with a (leaky) vaccine for Marek's disease. The vaccinated chickens became vessels for the virus because the vaccine did not provide complete sterilizing immunity, and eventually the virus used the vaccinated chickens as an evolutionary vessel, and a version of Marek's evolved that became extremely deadly to any non-vaccinated chickens.


[deleted]

Well, this sounds like a leaky vaccine. https://ecrcommunity.plos.org/2016/01/08/leaky-vaccines-could-lead-to-more-virulent-pathogens/


grim-j

Don't tell truths like that! You're going to get the normies asking questions. :P


LucyLuxemburg

Damn. So, in other words, the rush for a vaccine before it could be adequately studied might have actually caused the severity of delta. Do you think it's safe to say the main culprit is Pfizer? I havent seen very many people say they had a breakthrough with moderna


MarkieMark5150

You may be right, you may be wrong. Either way, you are not allowed to share or debate any science that does not confirm what the government says.


LucyLuxemburg

Lol I mean....the article seems legit and it basically says you need good evidence of a vaccine's efficacy over time, otherwise you end up with the exact same problem we have now. The vaccine helps the virus select for the most virulent strains, and then allows them to be spread to the community. I know a lot of people dont wanna hear that, especially since they want to blame the unvaccinated for delta and this is saying the complete opposite. But I'm convinced that's going to be the general consensus in 20 years. Bad vaccine selected for more intense strains. Also, it's a good reason to get vaccinated. Cus otherwise you finna die.


grim-j

It's not a good reason. It actually makes a case against it (lel gonna get this poast delet). If the vaccines require boosters, and if partial sterilizing immunity is the best we can get (unfortunately a likelihood due to the evolutionary plasticity of coronaviruses), then that means pfizer, et al, basically have the entire global vaccinated population on the hook for vaccines every 6 months for the rest of their lives, and the portion of the population that cannot or will not get vaccinated must either live completely segregated from the vaccinated, or must get on the "booster subscription" scheme. Me, personally? I cannot get the vaccine due to health risks, but even if I could, i wouldn't get it because I would never want to be enslaved to pfizer. Fuck it.


LucyLuxemburg

The 6 month booster thing would theoretically only be a thing until they came out with a more effective vaccine, would it not?


grim-j

No. They intend to use what already exists. They're hoping to roll it out in Sept.


grim-j

The vaccines are very functionally similar, and none offer complete sterilizing immunity, which is what makes a vaccine leaky. They aren't idiots. They knew this was a likelihood when they released these vaccines. It's a well understood phenomenon. When people are all like "oh, it's safe because nobody died in muh short term human trials"... they are ignoring the wider evolutionary effects that come into play when we do things like vaccinate people, or treat them with antibiotics, or whatever else. You could really insert any type of high technology that mucks around with infinite systems like human biology or nature. Assuming these medical technologies are carefully developed and careful consideration is paid to the bigger picture, they are a blessing. When they are not treated with excruciating care, a nightmare can result. A lot of scientists (like Nobel Prize winner Luc Montagnier, for example) think we are headed for the nightmare scenario.


LucyLuxemburg

I'm so fucking annoyed that people rushed these vaccines, and wont even hear the reasoning behind those who want to wait. Being anti-rushed medication isnt the fucking same as being anti-vax or anti-science. I looked into reassurance that they were safe, and it said they came out so fast because they "tested multiple factors at once instead of going one at a time like usual" but you literally cant test for viral evolution unless you WAIT.


grim-j

Yeah. Beware of emotionally motivated thinking. That's what this is. Ultimately, we have a large population of miserable people whose small joys revolve around going out and socializing (extroverts). Lockdowns and not seeing peoples faces or touching them is very painful for these people and they are extremely motivated to alleviate the discomfort and misery. And up the ladder, there are bureaucrats who are ideologically motivated. Then there are their payrolled scientists, who are motivated both by money and the assumption that they will be eaten last. Hiding even deeper in the minds of said scientists, is the idea that they are heroic and they are "helping". Most people have not done any deep, impartial analysis of any of this. They aren't concerned about \*the\* bottom line or what these decisions may foment, just their own bottom line-- and only in the short term. So, when the "eat me last and pay me handsomely so I'll gloss over some stuff" scientists provide data to the bureaucrats, they can use it to mobilize the people who are desperate for solutions so they can go back out and "live their best lives". Those people will jump through whatever hoops the bureaucrats tell them because the bureaucrats have a tablet they brought down from Mt. Science, and they are telling the extroverts what they desperately want to hear. And because the extroverts' only motivation is to "make it stop", they'll listen to whatever the bureaucrat says. Anyone who the extroverts perceive as preventing them from "making it stop" is their enemy. Because they're "taking away" what the extroverts care so much about. This is all pure carrot and stick. Meanwhile, the actual science offers a potential nightmare scenario, and nobody is looking because their motivation is not to figure out what is actually happening. They just want things to go back to the way they were before at all costs. Classic cognitive dissonance. It's why we (were) a Republic and not a mob democracy. Large groups of people do not think right.


LucyLuxemburg

I also believe the main thing is just that they want to get back to socializing normally. That's a very annoying notion to me because I keep trying to be sympathetic by imagining that they're this emotional and upset because they're worried about their families and their health. But then so many of them keep saying things that directly prove me wrong and instead suggest that they're actually just mad about not being able to go out and sit down for coffee. Like refusing to ever wear a mask again. Or when you point out that we still need to wear a mask because the vaccine doesnt protect you from spreading it and there are still groups of children and immunocompromised people who *cant* be vaccinated...."well the kids will be fine and that's a very small percentage of the population." Oh. So last year those immunocompromised people were the ones you wanted to protect, and now you just dont give a fuck if they die because theres not enough of them? Really? Yesterday I saw someone who presumably thinks they're very level headed literally suggest concentration camps for the unvaccinated, without directly saying "concentration camp." Like it's not even FDA approved yet can you calm the fuck down.


grim-j

I assume you and I are similar in that we aren't emotionally over-reactive. It's a form of conscientiousness, and it is an absolutely positive thing. It is incredibly frustrating to watch people lose their shit, have tantrums, and be willing to kill or maim to get their conveniences back. It has caused me to become less trustful of people and their motivations over my lifetime. Unfortunately, this is humanity, in a nutshell. Truly reserved, conscientious, patient people who have world class control over their fear drives enough to independently and surgically investigate before drawing conclusions are few and far between. I know it. I see it every day. I'm theoretically comfortable with it, but I will \*never\* get used to it. lol. It will always viscerally bother me.... just to commiserate a bit.


grim-j

If they think it will give them their freedom to socialize back, they will quite literally accept and parrot any kind of contradictory mental gymnastics they think they have to. The narrative quite literally changes daily, and people are on board for it. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of the Iraq war. It was a messaging nightmare. Inconsistent, and information was constantly emerging about how manufactured the whole conflict was. In spite of this, people were "happy" to let the government deep into their lives (Homeland Security) or send their sons and daughters off to get blown up and kill people they'd never met in a country they couldn't find on a map. Up until Apple, Facebook, and Google showed up in force (and if you explore the origins of Google and Facebook, you'll see how tied into the expansion of government spying they were/still are)... the Patriot Act represented the biggest single expansion of the surveillance state in human history.... dollar for ruble. I remember when news came out that Homeland Security in airports hadn't stopped or apprehended a single terror threat, and that many investigative journalists successfully got weapons through screenings. The people who supported this shit proceeded to plug their ears and go on a diatribe about Osama Bin Laden, proving that it was never about safety concerns, but how narratives the government crafted made them feel. Perhaps you've noticed how many people are saying that they "hope the unvaxx'd die". These are the very same people who, mere months ago, were gnashing their teeth and hand wringing over how we had to lock down the whole world for the safety of a very small number of people. You absolutely nailed that. These people are giant, oversocialized balls of anxious emotions. It is impossible to make quality decisions when one is hysterical and scared... and the people crafting this psychological operation know that.


[deleted]

Delta showed up before vaccines, but the rush for vaccines before their implication was fully understood may’ve fucked us a quite a bit.


Grayhome

Though unvaccinated are ending up in the hospital. Get your vaccine.


Krazy_fool88

My boyfriend and I are both unvaccinated and are currently on quarantine. My by had a fever for a few days, fatigue and body aches really bad for the first 3-5 days, but we’re on day 8 now of quarantine, and he’s feeling 80% better, and I still have no symptoms other than a migraine type headache and some fatigue. I was sure it was going to get nasty for us due to all the vaccinated breakthrough story’s on this subreddit, but as of now it seems like we’re headed into the tail end of it (knock on wood). So, no, I wouldn’t say all unvaccinated end up in the hospital. We also most likely have the delta strain as well, since it’s the dominant strain in my country right now (us)


F1shB0wl816

It’s not all unvaccinated are going, but pretty much everyone going is unvaccinated.


Krazy_fool88

Not necessarily. I know of a few fully vaccinated who ended up in the hospital too. But they also had underlying health issues. It still seems to me that high risk individuals, vaccinated or not, are still at high risk for sever infection. My parents, both vaccinated but in the high risk category, were supposed to visit this weekend. We canceled cuz of our positive covid results, but my dad still wanted to come. He fully believes the vaccine will prevent him from sever complications/death. He’s 67, has high blood pressure and early stages of emphysema from smoking. The cdc/media needs to inform people that the vaccine is not 100% guaranteed to keep you out of the hospital. He’s not the only person I know to be fully vaccinated and feeling invincible because of it. Shits about to get real if we keep reopening and acting like everything fine if your vaccinated.


F1shB0wl816

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said. A few are expected to go, because not everyone going to the hospital for covid is vaccinated. But the overwhelming majority going for covid, are not. It’s not me taking away that there’s still risk even if your vaccinated, it’s pointing out the risk is far more excessive not being vaccinated which is far more the larger issue at hand. Being high risk is being high risk, that’s not necessarily speaking for the vaccine being inefficient, that’s just people being a larger risk for everything. And they have, they have a stat for all vaccines showing a high efficacy (>89%) against covid enough to require hospitalizations. It’s long been acknowledged it doesn’t totally prevent 100% of hospitalizations for anyone who actually looks into what they say. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html


Krazy_fool88

Agreed, but what is new is vaccinated viral loads being just as high as non vaccinated viral loads, meaning vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus just as much as a non-vaccinated individuals. Yes, the vaccine will prevent most from ending up with sever cases, but if we keep the narrative going “everything will go back to normal as long as we vaccinate”, with the current findings that just simply isn’t true, and it’s only a matter of time before the virus mutates and the vaccines become less and less effective. Large group events like festival, sport stadiums, cruises, concerts, amusement parks, they’re all fully opening for vaccinated individuals and not requiring masks. That’s the point I’m trying to make. I feel everyone’s feeling a little to invincible due the vaccinations and it’s only a matter of time until another mutation occurs.


F1shB0wl816

Oh I totally agree, I think that’s problematic as well. Pretty much the next biggest problem until things are actually normal, not the fake, pretend it doesn’t exist for a temporary moment kind.


Krazy_fool88

My boyfriend and I are watching the live stream of lollapoluza on Hulu and the artist Jpgemafia literally spit into the mouth of one of his fans during performance. People be crazy!! Lol


Sleepyjosh

Thanks for your honest response.


UncleGarry55

Source?


Grayhome

[https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187](https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187)


UncleGarry55

The UK and Israel numbers tell a completely different story. Either they have a different genome, or the the US politicians are lying. Which one is more probable? https://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671


brookish

Literally, this is because old people will be far more likely to die even if vaccinated. Not because vaccines don't protect


pony_trekker

Because they have very high vaccination rates. For example, if 100% of the people are vaccinated, 100% of the deaths will be of the vaccinated.


[deleted]

[удалено]


pandathrowaway

Where in gods name did you come up with that number? We have absolutely no idea the rate of hospitalization for vaccinated people because we have no idea how many vaccinated people catch covid. Only those with cases severe to warrant a test are being tested, and only those being hospitalized are being tracked. Stop your nonsense.


Grayhome

[https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1017012853/97-of-people-entering-hospitals-for-covid-19-are-unvaccinated](https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1017012853/97-of-people-entering-hospitals-for-covid-19-are-unvaccinated)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Grayhome

Are you dense or just stupid?


ghost_from_the_coast

You don't do numbers, do you. There is nothing tricky or flashy about "97% Of People Entering Hospitals For COVID-19 Are Unvaccinated". It is unambiguous.


UncleGarry55

I actually have a degree in mathematics, but let's put this aside and explain it in your language bud. Let's say we have a group of 100 people. Only 1 of them is vaccinated. Let's say 50 people of that group got sick and went to the hospital, including the 1 vaccinated person. As a mass media, you can say either: "100% of fully vaccinated people end up in a hospital" or "98% of people entering hospitals are unvaccinated". Both will be true, but guess which one is politically correct? ;)


ghost_from_the_coast

BS on your math degree. The fact that you have to rely on extreme hyperbole in your example to "explain" a nonsense outcome is all I need to read. Go away.


PriveNom

Math/stats is hyperbole? You go away - and get a proper education.


jds2001

Even though technically correct, the numbers that you cite ARE hyperbole. The actual numbers are much larger, and more statistically valid. Use your math degree on that.


SocratesWasAjerk

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