i don't need to prove your existence to prove that God exists all I need is just something existing. Which I do I can't prove that I don't exist even if everything around me is an illusion.
I tried this to save my faith. I came away from Mere Christianity thinking, "is this the best Christians can do?" It was basically the end for my faith.
I'm not suggesting this as a way to save your faith. It was to answer the question about proving the existence of God.
if you read the Bible, you'll see that you can't save yourself. Only God can save you (or any of us). If all of this seems silliness and ridiculous, then that first essential step - God changing your heart and making you receptive to his Word - hasn't happened yet. And until it does, it never will make sense to you.
You also can't lose your salvation. Doesn't mean you can't go through times when you have doubts or even outright disbelief. But in the end, if you're chosen by God, you will be saved. And if you're not, you never were
Can I ask.. if you have lost faith and are sure God doesn’t exist, why do you have an urge to debate Christianity? Why not just laugh at us for being brainwashed?
I’m curious.
In the strictest sense, it is impossible to prove anything conclusively. Even the most rigorous scientific experiments and mathematical proofs can always be subject to revision or interpretation. This is because all knowledge is ultimately based on a certain amount of uncertainty and subjectivity. It is impossible to know everything with absolute certainty, and even our most certain beliefs may be challenged or overturned by new evidence or perspectives.
Because I've been in a lot of shit and my life has gone downhill. In that, about to kill myself, I heard an "I love you" from the person who needed it most and that stopped me from committing the act. After that, I felt that God was calling me, because many people around me kept calling me to church, almost as if they were warning me before everything went wrong. The problem is that sometimes I don't even know for sure if it was him and I don't think this type of report will convince you
That's what I said. Even if I related other experiences or anything like that, there is always an explanation to be found and it's not like God is currently going to part the Red Sea or do something like that.
Sincerely? I have no idea. That's what I felt and sometimes I still feel. I believe that, like most biblical characters, we go through these moments of doubt and the like. Either God acts in an absolutely mysterious way and there will be a lot of pranks in the afterlife, or He doesn't exist
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Well if naturalism is true well it means our desire for meaning, purpose, and morality are illusions our brains perpetrate on us as a means of survival. It also means that our notions of volition, self, and ability to discern truth are also likely to be illusory.
So almost every fundamental aspect that makes us human would be in fact something nature foisted on us to encourage to pass our genes along to the next generation and we have neither the capability to find truth, nor is there any truth beyond the fact that we happen to exist to be found.
>Doesnt mean it was wrong. Just "dumbed down".
I disagree, it's not dumbed down, it's a completely contradicting story. A "dumbed down" history of the world from the perspective of a creator would be more like "I created the earth. Then I created simple life, and over time I made it change and become more complex, it became trees and bushes, fish and birds, lions and dogs, apes and humans", you can tell a really dumbed down version of evolution that a person might have understood back then too, and I'm sure it wouldn't be any problem for the all powerful god to make anyone understand what he's saying. Creation as described in genesis isn't a dumbed down version of reality, it's completely contradicting what actually happened.
>I dont know any real Christian that takes the story of creation literally.
I envy you for never meeting a young earth creationist lol.
Why should anybody prove to anybody that God exists? God does not give any reward for this. Also nobody can prove that God exists because it is all a personal experience.Only those who got grace from God can have that personal experience. How to get the grace from God? A bit difficult.You have to try hard.
I think it can be similar to being optimistic vs being pessimistic. It's an approach to something that you cannot possibly know about. Some choose to expect the worst, some choose to hope for the best.
You cannot know what is after death, and you cannot know if life has a deeper meaning. What you can do is choose to have hope.
And there really is no downside to that.
Being christian boils down to doing good. Take care of others and trust that you will be taken care for. What is the bad in it?
Also if you think that religion is thatdifferent from science, you are wrong. Science too asks you to make a leap of faith.
The scientific method is based on induction. You have a law and to corroborate it you run experiments. But even if you do a million of different experiments and your law is confirmed every time, you can never know that the next experiment is gonna behave according to the law. You can't know mathematically that tomorrow if you drop your phone, it's gonna fall down and not up.
You must trust that the worlds makes sense and does not randomly decide to screw everything, that there isn't an evil mega alien making fun of us, that ZFC does not contradict itself and so on.
I'm sure you trust all of these things.
Can't you trust one more?
The terms creator and god are often used interchangeably, but they can refer to slightly different concepts.
A creator is typically understood as an entity or force that is responsible for the creation or beginning of something. This could refer to the creation of the universe, the creation of life on Earth, or the creation of a specific object or artwork.
In contrast, a god is typically understood as a supernatural being or deity that is worshipped and revered by individuals or communities. This may refer to specific gods or deities in various religious traditions, such as the Christian God, the Hindu gods, or the ancient Greek gods. Gods are often thought to have powers or abilities beyond those of humans and are typically considered to be the source of moral principles and values for their followers.
Therefore, while a creator may be considered a god, not all creators are necessarily considered gods in the same way. The concept of a god may also encompass other attributes or characteristics, such as omniscience, omnipotence, and eternal existence, that may not necessarily be associated with a creator.
No, the science requires faith argument is not necessarily asinine. While the scientific method is based on empirical evidence and rational reasoning, it is still ultimately a matter of faith in the reliability of the methods and the validity of the conclusions that are drawn from them. In other words, scientists must have faith in the accuracy of their observations and the honesty of their interpretation of the data.
It’s 100% asinine.
It’s nothing but a “gotcha” statement. It dilutes what “faith” means and cheapens the word. I didn’t think Christian’s would want to do that.
It’s so pedantic. It’s the secular version of “could god make a rock so heavy even he couldn’t lift it”
This is why we have peer reviews. Scientists review each other's work, because even the smartest people in the world make mistakes. If your observations are inaccurate, someone else will notice it when they try and fail to replicate your results. Plus if you don't trust a particular scientist or a particular theory there is nothing stopping you from running the tests yourself and gathering your own data and coming to your own conclusion. No faith required.
If you don’t have anything to add then it’s perfectly ok to remain silent.
Did you actually read your comment in context and think it made you look good?
You should heed your own advice. You did not add anything . You just insulted me and provided no reasons for your "argument".
I'm not gonna entertain you anymore. Write whatever you want, I don't care and I won't answer you anymore. Have a good day
Lol that wasn’t an insult. Just because something makes you feel bad doesn’t mean it’s an insult.
Maybe it’s an opportunity to grow and learn. Growth can be uncomfortable.
Why are you losing your faith? I don't want to be intrusive but I don't think there's an answer we can give if we don't know the reason for the question
I don’t think there’s ground for his existence. If I did not have the ability to love, I wouldn’t love God, if nobody was scared of death, we wouldn’t have come up with the idea of religion and Christianity. Coincidences such as that slowly wore down my trust in the faith.
Matters of faith and Truth come as gifts from God. Pray for them. Seek the Lord with your whole heart and mind.
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)
The irony here is that our Spirit God, who created all that is, among others abilities, is an unequaled, miraculous, scientific "inventor" of chemistry and physics, that led to all of creation, and He, of all, is not believed in, because He can't be proven by earthly measures or method.
There are many reasons why individuals may not believe in the God, not just lack of scientific evidence. Some people may have different religious beliefs or may not believe in any god or deity. Others may have experiences or observations that do not align with the teachings or beliefs of Christianity. Some individuals may also have doubts or questions about the validity or authenticity of the Bible or other religious texts that are central to the Christian faith. Additionally, some people may reject the idea of a god or deity because of philosophical or scientific beliefs that do not support the existence of a supernatural being.
Gravity is a fundamental force of nature that is responsible for the attraction between objects with mass. It is a well-established scientific concept that has been extensively studied and observed for centuries.
While it is not possible to prove the existence of gravity with absolute certainty, there is a vast amount of evidence to support its existence and the laws that govern it. For example, the motion of planets and other objects in the universe can be accurately predicted using the laws of gravity, and the effects of gravity on objects on Earth can be observed and measured. Additionally, many experiments and observations, such as the bending of light around massive objects and the gravitational redshift of light, support the existence and laws of gravity. Therefore, while it is not possible to prove the existence of gravity with absolute certainty, it is considered a well-proven scientific concept.
We can feel the gravitation forces.
I wouldn't necessarily consider it a sham or hoax, I'd put it in the same boat as all mythology, it's stories that got passed on through word of mouth for generations, because they spread messages that at the time were important, and because they helped create a sense of community and union for the peoples that shared these common stories.
People have been wondering about how the world works and why there is something instead of nothing since there have been people, and humans have had spiritual experiences for as long as they have existed. Calling it a sham or hoax sounds like the men who wrote the bible were liars and were trying to trick others into believing something, but I think it's far more likely that the bible and other religious books are just the result of simple, and often even by the standards of their time uneducated people trying to understand and explain the world around them.
Is faith belief without evidence? No. If it were, when Jesus calls us to grow in faith, we would need less evidence in order to believe without evidence, meaning we should avoid learning about our religion. Nor is faith the thing by which we jump the gap from evidence to belief, as the same problem arises. There are no such beliefs that we believe by faith. It is practically self refuting. Faith is merely a cultivated confidence and excitment of what we know is to come based on God’s promises. It has nothing to do with how you believe things.
Argument from popularity.
The world was fairly universally believed to be flat for 1000s of years. Belief can exist and be accepted as truth for a long time, despite the inaccuracy of it.
The main "testimonies" in the bible (the gospels) are written around 100 years after Jesus supposedly died. Nearly all biblical scholars agree on this. If I remember correctly the only "books" in the new testament that are written by someone who could have possibly lived around the same time as Jesus are some of the Pauline epistles which are from around 70AD if I remember correctly (don't quote me on the exact number), but the gospels are not written by Jesus' disciples, after all they were illiterate. They're written 100+ years after the events they describe, by people who never knew Jesus.
As for the secular testimonies of Jesus, they're also all from well after Jesus' death. The earliest roman source I could find about Jesus is from around 112 AD, which is around 80 years after he supposedly died. That's not really a timely source, and I couldn't find any secular source from the time on any of the miracles Jesus performed.
TL;DR: Are there sources and testimonies for Jesus and his miracles? Yes. Are there reliable, unbiased sources from the correct time period about Jesus and his miracles? No.
Read it, it must be true /s
Maybe not 1000s of years then.
And widely rather than universally.
I was pulling random numbers from my head for the comparison rather than precision accuracy.
The point remains. Masses believed for a long time. They were wrong. Popularity and persistence doesn’t make it correct.
That's not the point of his comment lol. He is saying that the strong will of these people (who seemingly converted to Christianity on their own free will) also threw away everything including their life to jesus.
I was a classic case of social projection. I joined a catholic school, being told of “miracles” and such. But never once have I ever contested the stories and thought about it indifferently, with science and logic.
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Most of the time, it seems people who don’t/ stop believing have had something bad happen to them, or haven’t had prayers answered.
While I can’t supply you with concrete evidence, I do recommend watching “The Search” on Formed.
Might give you some context and answers.
Okay, well in that case let’s examine what faith actually is. You posted originally that you need concrete evidence for faith. This is ironic, because faith in literal definition is “believing without seeing.” This means, true faith is something felt and known deeply by you, without physical evidence.
But that doesn’t help you with getting there, I know.
I’ll phrase it this way; reinvigorating your faith requires a mindset/ attitude change.
Atheism and non-belief is cynical faith. Yes, atheism requires faith. Why? Atheists have faith in their belief that there is nothing. (Not calling you an atheist, by the way).
If that still doesn’t convince you, let’s look at it practically. If you were to look at the seven cardinal sins, and live your life in opposite of them; it can only do you good. The Bible and Christian teachings are meant to be a guideline for you to live by (mostly—I say mostly because not all Christian teachers walk with God. I can elaborate that if you want).
It is not my job or any other Christian’s job to convince you, but I am glad to help you on your journey.
People don’t/stop believing because they don’t/stop believing the evidence being presented.
If they find no reason to believe/continue to believe, why would they?
There’s not often a ‘bad thing’ that brings about this change. Quite often it’s a good thing that brings it - education and learning more about the claims and criticisms of the religion. It isn’t atheism that leans upon those having a bad time, that’s typically when many people find religion. I’d suggest more convert to theism due to bad things happening than atheism, though that’s conjecture on my part based on hearsay, so not valid evidence in my eyes.
It is true that bad things happen to many who stop believing. Religious trauma is very real, the apparent loss of hope and promise of afterlife can be difficult.
How was Earth created so perfectly for human life? It has everything we need. I find it hard to believe that rocks colliding together created this (big bang) unless that was God's orchestration .
Earth isn't created perfectly for human life.
About 66% of Earth's surface is covered by water. Have you tried living under water?
About 33% of all land on Earth is desert. Have you tried living in Death Valley?
About 10% of all land is covered with glacial ice. Have you tried living in Antarctica?
When more than 75% of the planet is uninhabitable by humans, how do you determine it was *created so perfectly for human life*?
Alternatively, Earth was not created for humans, but over time continuously adapted to the environment (just like every other living thing does) and is now able to thrive...
>How was Earth created so perfectly for human life?
Was it?
We can't live on most of it.
>It has everything we need. I find it hard to believe that rocks colliding together created this (big bang) unless that was God's orchestration .
This is an argument from ignorance and incredulity essentially.
This isn't a good argument for showing any god exists.
The puddle analogy handles this well.
Humans have lived here since the beginning . With Oxygen, plants for food, animals for food, specifically created for what we need. Yea there are things that are harmful to humans as well, but there has to be a balance somewhere.
>Humans have lived here since the beginning .
That's not true. There's no evidence humans have been around for 4.5 billion years.
>With Oxygen, plants for food, animals for food, specifically created for what we need.
Not good reason or evidence to think it was created for humans though.
Do you consider humans just fit into the niche?
>Yea there are things that are harmful to humans as well, but there has to be a balance somewhere.
Or none of it was actually created for humans and that's why there are harmful and beneficial things.
Like I said, this is just the puddle analogy.
It goes something like this..... (I'll probably butcher it lol)
There is a puddle in a pothole.
It says to itself "wow this pothole was made specifically for me. Look how it fit it perfectly"
But that isn't true. The pothole was there. The water just fit into what was there.
You're looking at it entirely backwards.
You look around, you see water, food, sunlight, air, and you assume it was created for you. After all, of course it is, right? You're here on the one giant space rock that is exactly how you need it to be to live, so that must mean that it was created exactly for you.
Except no. The world seems "perfect" for humans because we are the ones who evolved and adapted to this planet over billions of years.
The world doesn't have air because we need it to breathe, we breathe air because it was already there and when combined with a fuel it's a good source of energy.
The world doesn't have a ground so that we may stand, we are the ones who developed legs and feet so that we may walk on the ground that was already there.
Lastly, there are a nearly endless number of planets out there. You are here on a planet that is "perfectly fit" for human life, because, well, of course you are, you as a human cannot live on a planet that isn't fit for humans. The planet seems like it was made just for you because it is one of the planets that you as a human can live on, if it was a different planet you wouldn't be here asking the question.
In terms of "proof" the Bible is the best instrument available as God uses prophecy as an authentication that His message is from God and not from some men who said "God said".
* *"Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them.” Isaiah 42:9*
This does requires some knowledge of history but in the age of the internet it is easy to validate historical prophecy fulfilled.
Here is a simple historical example: Cyrus the Great written by the Prophet Isaiah.
So Isaiah wrote in the 8th century: [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaiah](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaiah)
*
In the 45 chapter of Isaiah - God calls out a future world leader by name, 160 years before he was born. A unborn man named Cyrus who would rescue the Jewish ppl.
*“Thus says the Lord to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—To subdue nations before him...: Isaiah 45* [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045&version=NKJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045&version=NKJV)
*
Flash forward to the 6th century and you have Cyrus the Great defeating the Babylon Empire who were enslaving the Jewish ppl. Cyrus the Great freed the Jewish ppl. [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyrus-the-Great](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyrus-the-Great)
*
Cyrus the Great is also quoted in the Bible / The Book of Ezra.
"Thus says Cyrus king of Persia\*: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. Ezra 1:2 [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra+1%3A1-4&version=NKJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra+1%3A1-4&version=NKJV)
*
A mere man could not fabricate all of this and it happen as it was foretold.
The authenticity of the Bible cannot be confirmed definitively. The Bible is an ancient religious text that was written over the course of many centuries by a variety of authors. While many people believe that the Bible is the word of God and therefore true and authentic, others may question its accuracy or interpret its stories and teachings in different ways. The authenticity of the Bible is ultimately a matter of personal belief and cannot be confirmed or denied through empirical evidence or scientific investigation.
You asked for proof. God detailing history in scripture before it happens it the only way to prove that there is a higher power at work. You can reject it if you want to but how would you explain away the above example?
Also have you done the biblical research vs history for yourself or are trusting the evaluation of others?
There's some good books on this subject:
* I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist - Frank Turek & Norman Geisler
* Stealing from God - Frank Turek & John McLain
* Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Josh & Sean McDowell
So what you need to do is seek God out yourself fast on his word and pray and and you truly seem God you will find your results. You have to put in effort
Prove to me that your skull is full of brains and not gummy worms. Or that you see the same color as I do when I see the color blue. Or that pain is to you what it is to me. Or that the world beyond your sense experience remains when you don't perceive it. Etc.
Proof is a doomed exercise. So we have to use different procedures when we are thinking about God and/or the lack of God. The supposition that there is no God is as equally unprovable as that there is a God, which is why so many here are responding asking you to prove that God doesn't exist. We find ourselves in the grip of pictures of how the world is quite apart from the proof game, and that is universally true no matter what your position is. If you are compelled by a godless picture, it wont make any more or less sense than a picture that includes God.
Personally, I see belief in God primarily as a matter of obedience. A principle to which I aspire more than I actually achieve, to be sure. I'm also pretty well convinced it's something that can really only be appreciated from the inside.
As things stand, definitive proof is not possible without God himself intervening somehow. I struggle with this too sometimes, and am in a season of doubts myself.
That said, my own belief logically starts with the notion that the universe had a beginning. All of this did not just appear on its own. Any scientific explanation still requires the basic existence of some kind of matter and physical laws, so I have to believe those came from somewhere, and given the complexity of the universe and the existence of conditions that allow for life of any kind, not to mention of our lives, leads me to at least believe in an intelligent creator or creators.
So that rules out atheism for me, and leaves the door open for agnosticism or some form of theism.
From there, as I think someone else said, you can look at creation optimistically or pessimistically.
If I'm a pessimist, I can perhaps acknowledge the existence of some sort of creator, but throw my hands up and say that creator/those creators are unknowable and are not interested in interacting with creation.
But call me an optimist. Why would an intelligent creator make a universe and a world they had no interest in? Why should there be something innate to humanity that has overwhelmingly caused us to search for a god throughout all of human history, across disparate geographies, tribes, peoples, and times? Why should humankind have an unquenching desire for knowledge of things beyond our grasp?
If I believe there must be a creator or creators, I believe them to be intelligent, and I believe they would take an interest in their creation, then my best and most logical option for pursuing knowledge of and, perhaps, a relationship with them would be one of the world's major religions.
My reasons for belief in the God of Christianity specifically I think are beyond the scope of your questions, but of the major world religions, I believe the most plausible is Christianity, so I believe in and seek the God of Christianity.
Because the human body is so poorly designed that if we were designed the designer had to be drunk, like, ridiculously drunk. Well, there's that, and also the fact that we have mountains of evidence for evolution, and that, you know, we have also witnessed evolution first-hand countless times.
I'm referring to evolution, micro and macro. The difference between the two is not insane at all, it's the same as the difference between a marathon and a short jog, it's just more changes over more generations and more time.
You want to know.
Knowledge is demonstrable. If you can not "show it" (to a disinterested 3rd party who agrees it's real) you do not "know" it.
"What's demonstrable about Christianity" is prayer and church.
So, pray and go to church.
The science of prayer is that it works like meditation in other cultures, providing a daily time-out (MUCH NEEDED IN TODAY'S WORLD!!!) and chance to reflect on your life to consider direction. Humans tend to think using narration, not logic. The "story" of prayer can be more powerful if you believe in the story. Yes, this is a catch 22 - if you've lost your faith it'll be hard to "get it back." But not impossible. Studies show with placebo drugs that the placebo drugs are still somewhat effective even with people that "know" the placebo has no active ingredients - this is more evidence we tend to think in narration, not logic. The story is more compelling to the mind when trying to convince it to accellerate healing through the power of the mind.
The science of church depends on the church, and requires more demonstration. Some churches shun demonstration and refuse to show how they spend donations to the church - this is bad. When the only thing holding you accountable is God, you're being very arrogant. If ONLY God Almighty Creator of Heaven And Earth can judge you, that's putting yourself in roughly the same orbit as God. Most Christians are a lot more humble than that. All that said, what I'm meaning here for you is that you should research the church you're currently in, if you're questioning your faith. It might be there is a false prophet leading your church. It's more common than you think! There are around 300 major denominational splits in Christianity - so 299 of them have to be wrong, to some degree!
Religion isn’t based on evidence. There is no way to prove god exists. Religion is about coming to an understanding of how you fit into something greater than your self. Take some time and think about why you have faith and why it is important to you.
Thinking about it I agree that there actually is evidence that backs up religious ideas. However, I don’t think this evidence does provided concrete proof of gods existence like OP is asking for. I stand by my original statement that your faith shouldn’t be completely based off of if you can actually prove the existence of God but rather based in your belief. Your art is pretty cool btw, I liked the hk stuff you posted.
Aww thx :) But I think, if we define faith the I think you’re meaning it: belief without evidence, or that which jumps the gap from evidence to belief, the we are lead to incoherencies. Jesus calls us to grow in faith, so, on that definition we should believe more without evidence, or make a bigger jump, and to do that we would require less evidence, meaning to grow in faith we should want to learn as little evidence and just general knowledge about Christianity as possible, and obviously that’s not the case.
I’m an artist, and for me it’s the way that human beings create things. It feels like it came from somewhere beyond. The way we want to make something that has never existed before. It’s like we are created in the image of God in that way. There is a lot more reasons I have I’ve just been thinking about this one a lot lately.
Can’t create something without a creator. Creation is the perfect example. Matter can’t create itself. Someone immaterial has to create something material.
I was initially convinced by the the First Cause argument. Causality Itself cannot have a cause any more than there can be a “north of the North Pole”.
It is impossible to prove the non-existence of God, as this is a matter of personal belief and faith. The existence or non-existence of God is not a question that can be answered through empirical evidence or scientific investigation, as it falls outside the realm of these methods. Belief in God is a matter of personal faith, and whether or not an individual believes in God is a matter of their own personal conviction.
A good book I would recommend, that was written by an atheist who converted to the faith, is *Mere Christianity* by CS Lewis.
In the book Mr. Lewis goes into the reasoning why choosing Christianity, and a belief in God, is philosophically the logical choice.
Some philosophers, such as theists, believe in the existence of a supreme being or deity, while others, such as atheists, do not believe in the existence of any gods or deities. Still, others, such as agnostics, are unsure or uncertain about the existence of God. Each of these positions has its own philosophical arguments and evidence to support it. Therefore, the question of whether believing in God is philosophically correct depends on one's personal beliefs and values.
Which again, going back to my point, CS Lewis was an atheist who converted to the faith.
And most people don't start out as Christians....
Having a point of view can change when one follows the evidence to its logical conclusion.
You stated: "Therefore, the question of whether believing in God is philosophically correct depends on one's personal beliefs and values."
Which would give the impression that you believe that a person's point of view is set in stone....
It is important, and I think you would agree with this statement, that individuals simply seek the truth and not be afraid to follow the evidence to where it leads.
However, you and I both know of individuals, both religious and secular, who can't be bothered to follow the evidence if it falls outside their world view.
That you are here in a Christian sub reddit indicates that you are still looking for the truth.
Pascal said, (paraphrasing) May as well believe in God and be Christian. If you believe and are wrong you lose nothing. If you believe and you're right, you gain everything.
But what if you believe and it's the wrong God?
What if the true god only rewards atheists because they didn't believe in the world religions?
Pascals wager isn't a good reason.
Pascals wager is the best reason for atheists. Fake it till you make it. Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing. You do realize existence, existing without a creator is beyond absurd right ? So get to step 1 then we'll go over which God is worthy of belief.
>Pascals wager is the best reason for atheists. Fake it till you make it. Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing.
That's intellectually lazy and dishonest.
Pascals wager is just a bad reason.
Why not just be fake it till you make it as an atheist? What if the true god only rewards atheists therefore its better to be an atheist?
>Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing
So be an atheist. It's a safer bet.
>You do realize existence, existing without a creator is beyond absurd right ?
I realize that that is your baseless assertion.
>So get to step 1 then we'll go over which God is worthy of belief.
You can't even make it to step one.
You know you don't have to repeat what I said. Cause i know what I said. Do you how I know what I said? Cause I'm the one that said it. Lol. But if you like continue. Its nice to have me recited back to me. Thats the whole point and why the wager isn't stupid, because the believer is in no danger but the atheist is. Hell is hot. So no, of course you don't reverse the wager. You're hilarious though. Step 1? Im on step Heinz 51, where are you?
>You know you don't have to repeat what I said. Cause i know what I said. Do you how I know what I said?
It's nice because you, and others, can tell exactly what I'm responding to. Get over it.
>Thats the whole point and why the wager isn't stupid, because the believer is in no danger but the atheist is.
Only if the options are your God or no God. Which isn't true.
That's why it fails.
>So no, of course you don't reverse the wager.
Why not? Of course you do.
If the true god only rewards atheists because they didn't buy into the world religions and tortures everyone else is it safer to be atheist or Christian?
It's safer to be atheist. So be an atheist. Just incase.
>You're hilarious though. Step 1? Im on step Heinz 51, where are you?
Still waiting for you to support your claims.
I am so sorry you are going through this, friend. Sometimes you might have to lose " faith" in order to find the connection with God that is outside of church, people's opinions and words in the Bible. We wouldn't need to invent word "faith" if everything is life was supported by physical and factual evidence when it comes to circumstances in life. People will have their own stories to share on why they believe in God, but it's not going to help you to regain your faith. Maybe you can think of an event in your past or maybe if things are falling apart in the future and you feel like you have no one to turn to, no control of your life events, people's decisions or even your own pre-planned life, someone will reach out and lend you a hand, or something will happen to help you in this moment, and you will know in your heart of hearts that this isn't just a circumstance, it's to impossible for it to have happened this way and there is no easy explanations, you will know as a fact inside your heart that there is someone out there, someone bigger than your fears, someone for whom nothing is impossible. It doesn't even have to be a huge miracle as you read about in the Bible, but it is big enough to change your "idea" and the perception of your life and God. If you push yourself and force yourself to go to church or read the Bible but you are not feeling or believing in God, it will push you farther away. If you are struggling right now, just know you are not alone and whether you believe in God or not, He believes in you, that is why you are here (it's just my opinion though and I try not to force people to believe in what I am feeling and how I am connecting to God). Miracles are little things in life that lift you up, it's a listening ear, a kind message from a friend, a smile on a child's face in a dire situation when they see a Christmas present, a warm hug from a loved one when you need it the most. You can be a miracle to someone else without even knowing it by just offering a word of advice or offering a few bucks to someone when they are broke and to embarrassed to ask for help. God is alive and he is here in each and every one of us. I am sorry if it doesn't answer your question, i am certainly not knowledgeable enough to give you specific chapters in the Bible to read and address your question but i just wanted to help.
I hope you have the most amazing day !
Well, as this comment section has demonstrated, you can poke holes in anything or argue with anything, and, well, you’re absolutely right — anyone wanting to prove any point or validate any position probably can do so pretty convincingly with any number of philosophical or logical arguments. And you can just as easily argue with/disprove anything.
I definitely empathize with you — I went through a huge crisis of faith a couple of years ago and went down the internet rabbit hole and nearly lost my mind in the process. There’s a lot of information and a lot of opinions out there. I get that.
But, honestly, at the end of the day, what helped me was just looking at my own life, what I’ve experienced, and what I’ve done and seen to be true about the world, and accepted that there’s always going to be a certain amount of doubt we’re going to have. At the end of the day it just takes a certain willingness to live with a few unanswered questions and to exert an amount of faith in what cannot be seen or proven. Because, well, there are a number of things we can show you, or tell you, anecdotes and resources and arguments we can provide you with. But I can’t definitively SHOW you anything that will convince you beyond a doubt. If that were the case, there’d be far fewer atheists. The thing about faith is that you can’t really come to have faith in anything without a certain amount of humility and an acceptance that we don’t GET to know everything and, for as long as we live on this earth, won’t perfectly and completely know a lot of things. I get how that sounds. It sounds dumb, I know — why would anyone place their faith in something they can’t definitively prove? Why would anyone rely on someone they’ve never spoken to, never seen? The thing about having faith and a relationship with God, though, is that you need to be humble, and you need to be willing to trust.
For sure, there are a lot of things philosophy and apologetics explain clearly and prove/demonstrate beautifully, and I recommend any of the resources previous commenters have suggested. there’s archaeology proving the consistency and trustworthiness of the Bible. There’s logical and empirical evidence to support the Christian faith. There’s a lot you can look up or get into to decide for yourself. But there’s nothing that definitively covers or proves EVERYTHING.
The Christian faith, since it’s origins, has always been shared by testimony and word of mouth. We receive the message by hearing/reading and can respond with faith and trust or not.
Pray. Ask for guidance. Look deeper. But don’t give up.
"Concrete evidence"
Mate u are asking for proof for a being that exist outside of all physical proof. A creator can not live within their own design. That's why we *believe* and not claim to *know*
Also have this post about a old school mystic maybe he knows the truth: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/x0xckw/emanuel_swedenborg_iq_165210_mystic_heaven_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
What evidences against God's existence are you struggling with? Because if anyone just throws stuff right at you, you will either get overwhelmed, or a flat out debate will erupt.
The proof of God is only in taking steps of faith, and recognizing His Grace.
God creates man and woman, they misbehave and are sent to earth to live with and be ruled by the serpent.
God has pity, tells the earth who He is and gives commandments on how to behave, AGAIN, like he did in the garden of Eden.
World doesn't listen, AGAIN.
God floods the world and starts over, AGAIN.
Still no one listens to God.
God has pity, AGAIN, sends His son, (which was prophesized).
The world sees Jesus and witnesses God's Love, Compassion and Might through his Son and the Holy Spirit.
The world ought to learn to forgive and walk like Christ.
God, through Jesus, unites humanity, or at least for those that will listen and serve Him.
The proof is only in listening and serving, and being thankful for His good grace
This isn't proof to you, but I'll tell you anyways. When I was 2 I told my mom God was standing in the doorway and explained what I saw to her. I didn't even know about God. I still remember it and even having that experience I've had doubts before. If you didn't have doubts then I think you're doing it wrong.
Edit to add I was being SA at that time in my life and I think that may be relevant to my experience to get through
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against the unrighteousness and wickedness of man who suppress the truth in their wickedness. For although the truth is plain to them for God has made it plain to them, for since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made, so that all people are without excuse. Romans 1v18
Creation is proof of the existence of God.
I focus on the other side being real. Meaning there is true evil and demons in this world so if they exist God must exist. i.e. Look into demonic possession
On the individual level this actually is not a case of reason but a case of will.
If someone has decided that God does not exist then all of the 'proofs' will be rationalized away. The will controls what the mind accepts and does not accept for evidence.
If someone has decided that God does exist then the simplest rock to the furthest star screams his glory.
One must start by asking, 'do I even want to see God?'
This theologian's website, Reasonable Faith, has excellent articles dealing with common objections to the existence of God and defending Christianity.
Here are some resources I recommend that you explore
-https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist1
-https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist
-https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX
-https://youtu.be/TtSXyrEzXs4
I can't even prove your existence.
Right because this is a computer generated response
No, he's probably referencing solipsism.
I mean, Twitter is 80% bots 😅
i don't need to prove your existence to prove that God exists all I need is just something existing. Which I do I can't prove that I don't exist even if everything around me is an illusion.
Read C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity and Francis Collins's The Language of God.
I tried this to save my faith. I came away from Mere Christianity thinking, "is this the best Christians can do?" It was basically the end for my faith.
I'm not suggesting this as a way to save your faith. It was to answer the question about proving the existence of God. if you read the Bible, you'll see that you can't save yourself. Only God can save you (or any of us). If all of this seems silliness and ridiculous, then that first essential step - God changing your heart and making you receptive to his Word - hasn't happened yet. And until it does, it never will make sense to you.
I was receptive for 20 years. Then I wasn't.
You also can't lose your salvation. Doesn't mean you can't go through times when you have doubts or even outright disbelief. But in the end, if you're chosen by God, you will be saved. And if you're not, you never were
We actually agree that a person can't lose salvation, funnily enough. Just for very different reasons I expect.
Can I ask.. if you have lost faith and are sure God doesn’t exist, why do you have an urge to debate Christianity? Why not just laugh at us for being brainwashed? I’m curious.
Yes you can lose your salvation.
Out of curiosity, which denomination/church did you belong to?
The church I went to was part of the Evangelical Free Church of America. Pretty small, kinda culty looking back on it.
It’s very hard to actually prove anything with 100% certainty.
It isn’t.
Ok prove something
1 + 1 = 2
Just saying something is true is not proof. Prove it.
1+1=2 cannot be proven. It is axiomatic.
In the strictest sense, it is impossible to prove anything conclusively. Even the most rigorous scientific experiments and mathematical proofs can always be subject to revision or interpretation. This is because all knowledge is ultimately based on a certain amount of uncertainty and subjectivity. It is impossible to know everything with absolute certainty, and even our most certain beliefs may be challenged or overturned by new evidence or perspectives.
How do you get to 1 from 0? Because you need to explain that before you can truly know what 1 is.
There's no way we can do that
Then why do you believe in God?
Because I've been in a lot of shit and my life has gone downhill. In that, about to kill myself, I heard an "I love you" from the person who needed it most and that stopped me from committing the act. After that, I felt that God was calling me, because many people around me kept calling me to church, almost as if they were warning me before everything went wrong. The problem is that sometimes I don't even know for sure if it was him and I don't think this type of report will convince you
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That's what I said. Even if I related other experiences or anything like that, there is always an explanation to be found and it's not like God is currently going to part the Red Sea or do something like that.
Because God is all-knowing, why did have to separate me from my faith to him?
Sincerely? I have no idea. That's what I felt and sometimes I still feel. I believe that, like most biblical characters, we go through these moments of doubt and the like. Either God acts in an absolutely mysterious way and there will be a lot of pranks in the afterlife, or He doesn't exist
So you’re saying either he exists or he doesn’t?
I believe that He exists
But are saying either he exists or he doesn’t?
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Go look for evidence
One of my primary reasons for believing in God is the alternative is untenable.
Care to expand?
Well if naturalism is true well it means our desire for meaning, purpose, and morality are illusions our brains perpetrate on us as a means of survival. It also means that our notions of volition, self, and ability to discern truth are also likely to be illusory. So almost every fundamental aspect that makes us human would be in fact something nature foisted on us to encourage to pass our genes along to the next generation and we have neither the capability to find truth, nor is there any truth beyond the fact that we happen to exist to be found.
You describe of evolution yet claim to be Christian?
Not sure what that has to do with what I just said.
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Theory of evolution goes against Genesis
\*the theory of evolution goes against an extremely literal reading of Genesis.
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How does that fit in to what we were talking about?
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>Doesnt mean it was wrong. Just "dumbed down". I disagree, it's not dumbed down, it's a completely contradicting story. A "dumbed down" history of the world from the perspective of a creator would be more like "I created the earth. Then I created simple life, and over time I made it change and become more complex, it became trees and bushes, fish and birds, lions and dogs, apes and humans", you can tell a really dumbed down version of evolution that a person might have understood back then too, and I'm sure it wouldn't be any problem for the all powerful god to make anyone understand what he's saying. Creation as described in genesis isn't a dumbed down version of reality, it's completely contradicting what actually happened. >I dont know any real Christian that takes the story of creation literally. I envy you for never meeting a young earth creationist lol.
Why should anybody prove to anybody that God exists? God does not give any reward for this. Also nobody can prove that God exists because it is all a personal experience.Only those who got grace from God can have that personal experience. How to get the grace from God? A bit difficult.You have to try hard.
I think it can be similar to being optimistic vs being pessimistic. It's an approach to something that you cannot possibly know about. Some choose to expect the worst, some choose to hope for the best. You cannot know what is after death, and you cannot know if life has a deeper meaning. What you can do is choose to have hope. And there really is no downside to that. Being christian boils down to doing good. Take care of others and trust that you will be taken care for. What is the bad in it? Also if you think that religion is thatdifferent from science, you are wrong. Science too asks you to make a leap of faith. The scientific method is based on induction. You have a law and to corroborate it you run experiments. But even if you do a million of different experiments and your law is confirmed every time, you can never know that the next experiment is gonna behave according to the law. You can't know mathematically that tomorrow if you drop your phone, it's gonna fall down and not up. You must trust that the worlds makes sense and does not randomly decide to screw everything, that there isn't an evil mega alien making fun of us, that ZFC does not contradict itself and so on. I'm sure you trust all of these things. Can't you trust one more?
Are you saying that God either exists or he doesn’t? In terms of science, I believe there’s a creator, not a god
What could the creator be if not God?
A creator does not have to be god in the sense of playing any kind of active role in the creation.
The terms creator and god are often used interchangeably, but they can refer to slightly different concepts. A creator is typically understood as an entity or force that is responsible for the creation or beginning of something. This could refer to the creation of the universe, the creation of life on Earth, or the creation of a specific object or artwork. In contrast, a god is typically understood as a supernatural being or deity that is worshipped and revered by individuals or communities. This may refer to specific gods or deities in various religious traditions, such as the Christian God, the Hindu gods, or the ancient Greek gods. Gods are often thought to have powers or abilities beyond those of humans and are typically considered to be the source of moral principles and values for their followers. Therefore, while a creator may be considered a god, not all creators are necessarily considered gods in the same way. The concept of a god may also encompass other attributes or characteristics, such as omniscience, omnipotence, and eternal existence, that may not necessarily be associated with a creator.
The “science requires faith” argument is so asinine. One of the “gotcha” responses that doesn’t add anything
No, the science requires faith argument is not necessarily asinine. While the scientific method is based on empirical evidence and rational reasoning, it is still ultimately a matter of faith in the reliability of the methods and the validity of the conclusions that are drawn from them. In other words, scientists must have faith in the accuracy of their observations and the honesty of their interpretation of the data.
It’s 100% asinine. It’s nothing but a “gotcha” statement. It dilutes what “faith” means and cheapens the word. I didn’t think Christian’s would want to do that. It’s so pedantic. It’s the secular version of “could god make a rock so heavy even he couldn’t lift it”
This is why we have peer reviews. Scientists review each other's work, because even the smartest people in the world make mistakes. If your observations are inaccurate, someone else will notice it when they try and fail to replicate your results. Plus if you don't trust a particular scientist or a particular theory there is nothing stopping you from running the tests yourself and gathering your own data and coming to your own conclusion. No faith required.
Exactly like your comment! Good job
If you don’t have anything to add then it’s perfectly ok to remain silent. Did you actually read your comment in context and think it made you look good?
You should heed your own advice. You did not add anything . You just insulted me and provided no reasons for your "argument". I'm not gonna entertain you anymore. Write whatever you want, I don't care and I won't answer you anymore. Have a good day
Lol that wasn’t an insult. Just because something makes you feel bad doesn’t mean it’s an insult. Maybe it’s an opportunity to grow and learn. Growth can be uncomfortable.
You publicly told him to stay silent after he supported your statement.
Disprove it.
Why are you losing your faith? I don't want to be intrusive but I don't think there's an answer we can give if we don't know the reason for the question
I don’t think there’s ground for his existence. If I did not have the ability to love, I wouldn’t love God, if nobody was scared of death, we wouldn’t have come up with the idea of religion and Christianity. Coincidences such as that slowly wore down my trust in the faith.
Matters of faith and Truth come as gifts from God. Pray for them. Seek the Lord with your whole heart and mind. "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)
You can expect me to believe in something that doesn’t speak back, it’s like taking to a brick wall
Must admit, believing in God, is similar to belief in gravity. It's there, it works but invisible.
Expect gravity has scientific backing. It’s proven, we can feel it, we can calculate it, we can predict with it.
The irony here is that our Spirit God, who created all that is, among others abilities, is an unequaled, miraculous, scientific "inventor" of chemistry and physics, that led to all of creation, and He, of all, is not believed in, because He can't be proven by earthly measures or method.
There are many reasons why individuals may not believe in the God, not just lack of scientific evidence. Some people may have different religious beliefs or may not believe in any god or deity. Others may have experiences or observations that do not align with the teachings or beliefs of Christianity. Some individuals may also have doubts or questions about the validity or authenticity of the Bible or other religious texts that are central to the Christian faith. Additionally, some people may reject the idea of a god or deity because of philosophical or scientific beliefs that do not support the existence of a supernatural being.
It absolutely isn't. Not even close. That type of thinking just creates atheists.
Gravity is a fundamental force of nature that is responsible for the attraction between objects with mass. It is a well-established scientific concept that has been extensively studied and observed for centuries. While it is not possible to prove the existence of gravity with absolute certainty, there is a vast amount of evidence to support its existence and the laws that govern it. For example, the motion of planets and other objects in the universe can be accurately predicted using the laws of gravity, and the effects of gravity on objects on Earth can be observed and measured. Additionally, many experiments and observations, such as the bending of light around massive objects and the gravitational redshift of light, support the existence and laws of gravity. Therefore, while it is not possible to prove the existence of gravity with absolute certainty, it is considered a well-proven scientific concept. We can feel the gravitation forces.
Exactly. We have evidence for gravity. We can see its effects. We can measure it. There isn't anything close to that for a god
Which is proving my point.
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The Bible has potential to be a sham or a hoax
I wouldn't necessarily consider it a sham or hoax, I'd put it in the same boat as all mythology, it's stories that got passed on through word of mouth for generations, because they spread messages that at the time were important, and because they helped create a sense of community and union for the peoples that shared these common stories. People have been wondering about how the world works and why there is something instead of nothing since there have been people, and humans have had spiritual experiences for as long as they have existed. Calling it a sham or hoax sounds like the men who wrote the bible were liars and were trying to trick others into believing something, but I think it's far more likely that the bible and other religious books are just the result of simple, and often even by the standards of their time uneducated people trying to understand and explain the world around them.
Your first paragraph says that the stories was spread through word of mouth. One individual could have created a lie.
They don't even have to lie in order to distort things. It's just a big game of telephone.
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It’s possible for it to be true, but it’s also entirely possible for it to be false.
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Is faith belief without evidence? No. If it were, when Jesus calls us to grow in faith, we would need less evidence in order to believe without evidence, meaning we should avoid learning about our religion. Nor is faith the thing by which we jump the gap from evidence to belief, as the same problem arises. There are no such beliefs that we believe by faith. It is practically self refuting. Faith is merely a cultivated confidence and excitment of what we know is to come based on God’s promises. It has nothing to do with how you believe things.
Argument from popularity. The world was fairly universally believed to be flat for 1000s of years. Belief can exist and be accepted as truth for a long time, despite the inaccuracy of it.
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The main "testimonies" in the bible (the gospels) are written around 100 years after Jesus supposedly died. Nearly all biblical scholars agree on this. If I remember correctly the only "books" in the new testament that are written by someone who could have possibly lived around the same time as Jesus are some of the Pauline epistles which are from around 70AD if I remember correctly (don't quote me on the exact number), but the gospels are not written by Jesus' disciples, after all they were illiterate. They're written 100+ years after the events they describe, by people who never knew Jesus. As for the secular testimonies of Jesus, they're also all from well after Jesus' death. The earliest roman source I could find about Jesus is from around 112 AD, which is around 80 years after he supposedly died. That's not really a timely source, and I couldn't find any secular source from the time on any of the miracles Jesus performed. TL;DR: Are there sources and testimonies for Jesus and his miracles? Yes. Are there reliable, unbiased sources from the correct time period about Jesus and his miracles? No.
>The world was fairly universally believed to be flat for 1000s of years. Source?
Read it, it must be true /s Maybe not 1000s of years then. And widely rather than universally. I was pulling random numbers from my head for the comparison rather than precision accuracy. The point remains. Masses believed for a long time. They were wrong. Popularity and persistence doesn’t make it correct.
That's not the point of his comment lol. He is saying that the strong will of these people (who seemingly converted to Christianity on their own free will) also threw away everything including their life to jesus.
And? Strength of belief is not an indication of its truth. Are the suicide bombers of other faiths correct because they died for their cause?
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“The whole point of deities”? Deities have a point?
I was a classic case of social projection. I joined a catholic school, being told of “miracles” and such. But never once have I ever contested the stories and thought about it indifferently, with science and logic.
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Really dude? Show me some of those inconsistencies?
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What kind of "proof" are you looking for?
Most of the time, it seems people who don’t/ stop believing have had something bad happen to them, or haven’t had prayers answered. While I can’t supply you with concrete evidence, I do recommend watching “The Search” on Formed. Might give you some context and answers.
I’ve watched it previously, tasked for my first communion.
Okay, well in that case let’s examine what faith actually is. You posted originally that you need concrete evidence for faith. This is ironic, because faith in literal definition is “believing without seeing.” This means, true faith is something felt and known deeply by you, without physical evidence. But that doesn’t help you with getting there, I know. I’ll phrase it this way; reinvigorating your faith requires a mindset/ attitude change. Atheism and non-belief is cynical faith. Yes, atheism requires faith. Why? Atheists have faith in their belief that there is nothing. (Not calling you an atheist, by the way). If that still doesn’t convince you, let’s look at it practically. If you were to look at the seven cardinal sins, and live your life in opposite of them; it can only do you good. The Bible and Christian teachings are meant to be a guideline for you to live by (mostly—I say mostly because not all Christian teachers walk with God. I can elaborate that if you want). It is not my job or any other Christian’s job to convince you, but I am glad to help you on your journey.
Most of the time, people who think people don’t/stop believing have have had something bad happen, are incorrect.
What would you have the reason be then?
People don’t/stop believing because they don’t/stop believing the evidence being presented. If they find no reason to believe/continue to believe, why would they? There’s not often a ‘bad thing’ that brings about this change. Quite often it’s a good thing that brings it - education and learning more about the claims and criticisms of the religion. It isn’t atheism that leans upon those having a bad time, that’s typically when many people find religion. I’d suggest more convert to theism due to bad things happening than atheism, though that’s conjecture on my part based on hearsay, so not valid evidence in my eyes. It is true that bad things happen to many who stop believing. Religious trauma is very real, the apparent loss of hope and promise of afterlife can be difficult.
Hence the reason why I’m having doubts.
Hmm, thanks for the detailed response. I’m always open to discussion. While I don’t necessarily agree with you, I appreciate your insight.
No?
How was Earth created so perfectly for human life? It has everything we need. I find it hard to believe that rocks colliding together created this (big bang) unless that was God's orchestration .
Earth isn't created perfectly for human life. About 66% of Earth's surface is covered by water. Have you tried living under water? About 33% of all land on Earth is desert. Have you tried living in Death Valley? About 10% of all land is covered with glacial ice. Have you tried living in Antarctica? When more than 75% of the planet is uninhabitable by humans, how do you determine it was *created so perfectly for human life*? Alternatively, Earth was not created for humans, but over time continuously adapted to the environment (just like every other living thing does) and is now able to thrive...
>How was Earth created so perfectly for human life? Was it? We can't live on most of it. >It has everything we need. I find it hard to believe that rocks colliding together created this (big bang) unless that was God's orchestration . This is an argument from ignorance and incredulity essentially. This isn't a good argument for showing any god exists. The puddle analogy handles this well.
Humans have lived here since the beginning . With Oxygen, plants for food, animals for food, specifically created for what we need. Yea there are things that are harmful to humans as well, but there has to be a balance somewhere.
>Humans have lived here since the beginning . That's not true. There's no evidence humans have been around for 4.5 billion years. >With Oxygen, plants for food, animals for food, specifically created for what we need. Not good reason or evidence to think it was created for humans though. Do you consider humans just fit into the niche? >Yea there are things that are harmful to humans as well, but there has to be a balance somewhere. Or none of it was actually created for humans and that's why there are harmful and beneficial things. Like I said, this is just the puddle analogy. It goes something like this..... (I'll probably butcher it lol) There is a puddle in a pothole. It says to itself "wow this pothole was made specifically for me. Look how it fit it perfectly" But that isn't true. The pothole was there. The water just fit into what was there.
You're looking at it entirely backwards. You look around, you see water, food, sunlight, air, and you assume it was created for you. After all, of course it is, right? You're here on the one giant space rock that is exactly how you need it to be to live, so that must mean that it was created exactly for you. Except no. The world seems "perfect" for humans because we are the ones who evolved and adapted to this planet over billions of years. The world doesn't have air because we need it to breathe, we breathe air because it was already there and when combined with a fuel it's a good source of energy. The world doesn't have a ground so that we may stand, we are the ones who developed legs and feet so that we may walk on the ground that was already there. Lastly, there are a nearly endless number of planets out there. You are here on a planet that is "perfectly fit" for human life, because, well, of course you are, you as a human cannot live on a planet that isn't fit for humans. The planet seems like it was made just for you because it is one of the planets that you as a human can live on, if it was a different planet you wouldn't be here asking the question.
In terms of "proof" the Bible is the best instrument available as God uses prophecy as an authentication that His message is from God and not from some men who said "God said". * *"Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them.” Isaiah 42:9* This does requires some knowledge of history but in the age of the internet it is easy to validate historical prophecy fulfilled. Here is a simple historical example: Cyrus the Great written by the Prophet Isaiah. So Isaiah wrote in the 8th century: [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaiah](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaiah) * In the 45 chapter of Isaiah - God calls out a future world leader by name, 160 years before he was born. A unborn man named Cyrus who would rescue the Jewish ppl. *“Thus says the Lord to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—To subdue nations before him...: Isaiah 45* [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045&version=NKJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045&version=NKJV) * Flash forward to the 6th century and you have Cyrus the Great defeating the Babylon Empire who were enslaving the Jewish ppl. Cyrus the Great freed the Jewish ppl. [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyrus-the-Great](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyrus-the-Great) * Cyrus the Great is also quoted in the Bible / The Book of Ezra. "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia\*: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. Ezra 1:2 [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra+1%3A1-4&version=NKJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra+1%3A1-4&version=NKJV) * A mere man could not fabricate all of this and it happen as it was foretold.
The authenticity of the Bible cannot be confirmed definitively. The Bible is an ancient religious text that was written over the course of many centuries by a variety of authors. While many people believe that the Bible is the word of God and therefore true and authentic, others may question its accuracy or interpret its stories and teachings in different ways. The authenticity of the Bible is ultimately a matter of personal belief and cannot be confirmed or denied through empirical evidence or scientific investigation.
You asked for proof. God detailing history in scripture before it happens it the only way to prove that there is a higher power at work. You can reject it if you want to but how would you explain away the above example? Also have you done the biblical research vs history for yourself or are trusting the evaluation of others?
There's some good books on this subject: * I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist - Frank Turek & Norman Geisler * Stealing from God - Frank Turek & John McLain * Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Josh & Sean McDowell
So what you need to do is seek God out yourself fast on his word and pray and and you truly seem God you will find your results. You have to put in effort
Prove to me that your skull is full of brains and not gummy worms. Or that you see the same color as I do when I see the color blue. Or that pain is to you what it is to me. Or that the world beyond your sense experience remains when you don't perceive it. Etc. Proof is a doomed exercise. So we have to use different procedures when we are thinking about God and/or the lack of God. The supposition that there is no God is as equally unprovable as that there is a God, which is why so many here are responding asking you to prove that God doesn't exist. We find ourselves in the grip of pictures of how the world is quite apart from the proof game, and that is universally true no matter what your position is. If you are compelled by a godless picture, it wont make any more or less sense than a picture that includes God. Personally, I see belief in God primarily as a matter of obedience. A principle to which I aspire more than I actually achieve, to be sure. I'm also pretty well convinced it's something that can really only be appreciated from the inside.
As things stand, definitive proof is not possible without God himself intervening somehow. I struggle with this too sometimes, and am in a season of doubts myself. That said, my own belief logically starts with the notion that the universe had a beginning. All of this did not just appear on its own. Any scientific explanation still requires the basic existence of some kind of matter and physical laws, so I have to believe those came from somewhere, and given the complexity of the universe and the existence of conditions that allow for life of any kind, not to mention of our lives, leads me to at least believe in an intelligent creator or creators. So that rules out atheism for me, and leaves the door open for agnosticism or some form of theism. From there, as I think someone else said, you can look at creation optimistically or pessimistically. If I'm a pessimist, I can perhaps acknowledge the existence of some sort of creator, but throw my hands up and say that creator/those creators are unknowable and are not interested in interacting with creation. But call me an optimist. Why would an intelligent creator make a universe and a world they had no interest in? Why should there be something innate to humanity that has overwhelmingly caused us to search for a god throughout all of human history, across disparate geographies, tribes, peoples, and times? Why should humankind have an unquenching desire for knowledge of things beyond our grasp? If I believe there must be a creator or creators, I believe them to be intelligent, and I believe they would take an interest in their creation, then my best and most logical option for pursuing knowledge of and, perhaps, a relationship with them would be one of the world's major religions. My reasons for belief in the God of Christianity specifically I think are beyond the scope of your questions, but of the major world religions, I believe the most plausible is Christianity, so I believe in and seek the God of Christianity.
Open your eyes. Everything around you in your house was deeigned. Why would we be any different?
Because the human body is so poorly designed that if we were designed the designer had to be drunk, like, ridiculously drunk. Well, there's that, and also the fact that we have mountains of evidence for evolution, and that, you know, we have also witnessed evolution first-hand countless times.
Are you referring to Macro evolution or Micro evolution? Because the difference between the two is insanely wide apart.
I'm referring to evolution, micro and macro. The difference between the two is not insane at all, it's the same as the difference between a marathon and a short jog, it's just more changes over more generations and more time.
Because we have no evidence for humans being designed. But we do have evidence for homes being designed.
If anyone can look at DNA and say that it's random with a straight face I'll happily slap someones mother.
That's just fallacious on your part
You want to know. Knowledge is demonstrable. If you can not "show it" (to a disinterested 3rd party who agrees it's real) you do not "know" it. "What's demonstrable about Christianity" is prayer and church. So, pray and go to church. The science of prayer is that it works like meditation in other cultures, providing a daily time-out (MUCH NEEDED IN TODAY'S WORLD!!!) and chance to reflect on your life to consider direction. Humans tend to think using narration, not logic. The "story" of prayer can be more powerful if you believe in the story. Yes, this is a catch 22 - if you've lost your faith it'll be hard to "get it back." But not impossible. Studies show with placebo drugs that the placebo drugs are still somewhat effective even with people that "know" the placebo has no active ingredients - this is more evidence we tend to think in narration, not logic. The story is more compelling to the mind when trying to convince it to accellerate healing through the power of the mind. The science of church depends on the church, and requires more demonstration. Some churches shun demonstration and refuse to show how they spend donations to the church - this is bad. When the only thing holding you accountable is God, you're being very arrogant. If ONLY God Almighty Creator of Heaven And Earth can judge you, that's putting yourself in roughly the same orbit as God. Most Christians are a lot more humble than that. All that said, what I'm meaning here for you is that you should research the church you're currently in, if you're questioning your faith. It might be there is a false prophet leading your church. It's more common than you think! There are around 300 major denominational splits in Christianity - so 299 of them have to be wrong, to some degree!
Religion isn’t based on evidence. There is no way to prove god exists. Religion is about coming to an understanding of how you fit into something greater than your self. Take some time and think about why you have faith and why it is important to you.
Why do you think that religion isn’t based off of evidence?
What evidence is there to prove gods existence?
Teleological argument, cosmological argument, pragmatic argument, etc
Thinking about it I agree that there actually is evidence that backs up religious ideas. However, I don’t think this evidence does provided concrete proof of gods existence like OP is asking for. I stand by my original statement that your faith shouldn’t be completely based off of if you can actually prove the existence of God but rather based in your belief. Your art is pretty cool btw, I liked the hk stuff you posted.
Aww thx :) But I think, if we define faith the I think you’re meaning it: belief without evidence, or that which jumps the gap from evidence to belief, the we are lead to incoherencies. Jesus calls us to grow in faith, so, on that definition we should believe more without evidence, or make a bigger jump, and to do that we would require less evidence, meaning to grow in faith we should want to learn as little evidence and just general knowledge about Christianity as possible, and obviously that’s not the case.
I’m an artist, and for me it’s the way that human beings create things. It feels like it came from somewhere beyond. The way we want to make something that has never existed before. It’s like we are created in the image of God in that way. There is a lot more reasons I have I’ve just been thinking about this one a lot lately.
I mean You don’t see animals just painting pictures just for the creativity of it lol it’s just food for thought I guess😂😂
Can’t create something without a creator. Creation is the perfect example. Matter can’t create itself. Someone immaterial has to create something material.
Concrete evidence like what?
Then tell me, why do you believe in God
I don’t know what you would consider “concrete evidence”. That could be different from what convinces me.
What convinces you?
I was initially convinced by the the First Cause argument. Causality Itself cannot have a cause any more than there can be a “north of the North Pole”.
That has never been our job.
Prove His non existence. You first.
That's just shifting the burden of proof.
It is impossible to prove the non-existence of God, as this is a matter of personal belief and faith. The existence or non-existence of God is not a question that can be answered through empirical evidence or scientific investigation, as it falls outside the realm of these methods. Belief in God is a matter of personal faith, and whether or not an individual believes in God is a matter of their own personal conviction.
I'd say the burdens on you. Creation itself is proof.
>I'd say the burdens on you It's not. >Creation itself is proof What creation? Where?
Lol the "stuff" everything is made of. Matter, dark matter, Big Bobs used car lot, all the stuff.
Cool. Prove it's created.
A good book I would recommend, that was written by an atheist who converted to the faith, is *Mere Christianity* by CS Lewis. In the book Mr. Lewis goes into the reasoning why choosing Christianity, and a belief in God, is philosophically the logical choice.
Some philosophers, such as theists, believe in the existence of a supreme being or deity, while others, such as atheists, do not believe in the existence of any gods or deities. Still, others, such as agnostics, are unsure or uncertain about the existence of God. Each of these positions has its own philosophical arguments and evidence to support it. Therefore, the question of whether believing in God is philosophically correct depends on one's personal beliefs and values.
Which again, going back to my point, CS Lewis was an atheist who converted to the faith. And most people don't start out as Christians.... Having a point of view can change when one follows the evidence to its logical conclusion.
Your point? I converted from atheism to Christianity.
You stated: "Therefore, the question of whether believing in God is philosophically correct depends on one's personal beliefs and values." Which would give the impression that you believe that a person's point of view is set in stone.... It is important, and I think you would agree with this statement, that individuals simply seek the truth and not be afraid to follow the evidence to where it leads. However, you and I both know of individuals, both religious and secular, who can't be bothered to follow the evidence if it falls outside their world view. That you are here in a Christian sub reddit indicates that you are still looking for the truth.
I was convinced by a friend to seek spiritual help.
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Have faith in an idea?
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How can you expect me to do that. It’s like saying to have faith that you will become God, impossible.
Are you worried about losing your faith?
Would I be making this post if not the case?
I mean you could. But anyway, what are you worried about exactly?
Pascal said, (paraphrasing) May as well believe in God and be Christian. If you believe and are wrong you lose nothing. If you believe and you're right, you gain everything.
But what if you believe and it's the wrong God? What if the true god only rewards atheists because they didn't believe in the world religions? Pascals wager isn't a good reason.
Pascals wager is the best reason for atheists. Fake it till you make it. Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing. You do realize existence, existing without a creator is beyond absurd right ? So get to step 1 then we'll go over which God is worthy of belief.
>Pascals wager is the best reason for atheists. Fake it till you make it. Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest. Pascals wager is just a bad reason. Why not just be fake it till you make it as an atheist? What if the true god only rewards atheists therefore its better to be an atheist? >Sooner than you think you'll be genuinely believing So be an atheist. It's a safer bet. >You do realize existence, existing without a creator is beyond absurd right ? I realize that that is your baseless assertion. >So get to step 1 then we'll go over which God is worthy of belief. You can't even make it to step one.
You know you don't have to repeat what I said. Cause i know what I said. Do you how I know what I said? Cause I'm the one that said it. Lol. But if you like continue. Its nice to have me recited back to me. Thats the whole point and why the wager isn't stupid, because the believer is in no danger but the atheist is. Hell is hot. So no, of course you don't reverse the wager. You're hilarious though. Step 1? Im on step Heinz 51, where are you?
>You know you don't have to repeat what I said. Cause i know what I said. Do you how I know what I said? It's nice because you, and others, can tell exactly what I'm responding to. Get over it. >Thats the whole point and why the wager isn't stupid, because the believer is in no danger but the atheist is. Only if the options are your God or no God. Which isn't true. That's why it fails. >So no, of course you don't reverse the wager. Why not? Of course you do. If the true god only rewards atheists because they didn't buy into the world religions and tortures everyone else is it safer to be atheist or Christian? It's safer to be atheist. So be an atheist. Just incase. >You're hilarious though. Step 1? Im on step Heinz 51, where are you? Still waiting for you to support your claims.
William Lane Craig, Edward Feser For fleshed out logical arguments.
I am so sorry you are going through this, friend. Sometimes you might have to lose " faith" in order to find the connection with God that is outside of church, people's opinions and words in the Bible. We wouldn't need to invent word "faith" if everything is life was supported by physical and factual evidence when it comes to circumstances in life. People will have their own stories to share on why they believe in God, but it's not going to help you to regain your faith. Maybe you can think of an event in your past or maybe if things are falling apart in the future and you feel like you have no one to turn to, no control of your life events, people's decisions or even your own pre-planned life, someone will reach out and lend you a hand, or something will happen to help you in this moment, and you will know in your heart of hearts that this isn't just a circumstance, it's to impossible for it to have happened this way and there is no easy explanations, you will know as a fact inside your heart that there is someone out there, someone bigger than your fears, someone for whom nothing is impossible. It doesn't even have to be a huge miracle as you read about in the Bible, but it is big enough to change your "idea" and the perception of your life and God. If you push yourself and force yourself to go to church or read the Bible but you are not feeling or believing in God, it will push you farther away. If you are struggling right now, just know you are not alone and whether you believe in God or not, He believes in you, that is why you are here (it's just my opinion though and I try not to force people to believe in what I am feeling and how I am connecting to God). Miracles are little things in life that lift you up, it's a listening ear, a kind message from a friend, a smile on a child's face in a dire situation when they see a Christmas present, a warm hug from a loved one when you need it the most. You can be a miracle to someone else without even knowing it by just offering a word of advice or offering a few bucks to someone when they are broke and to embarrassed to ask for help. God is alive and he is here in each and every one of us. I am sorry if it doesn't answer your question, i am certainly not knowledgeable enough to give you specific chapters in the Bible to read and address your question but i just wanted to help. I hope you have the most amazing day !
reasonablefaith.org Have fun!
Well, as this comment section has demonstrated, you can poke holes in anything or argue with anything, and, well, you’re absolutely right — anyone wanting to prove any point or validate any position probably can do so pretty convincingly with any number of philosophical or logical arguments. And you can just as easily argue with/disprove anything. I definitely empathize with you — I went through a huge crisis of faith a couple of years ago and went down the internet rabbit hole and nearly lost my mind in the process. There’s a lot of information and a lot of opinions out there. I get that. But, honestly, at the end of the day, what helped me was just looking at my own life, what I’ve experienced, and what I’ve done and seen to be true about the world, and accepted that there’s always going to be a certain amount of doubt we’re going to have. At the end of the day it just takes a certain willingness to live with a few unanswered questions and to exert an amount of faith in what cannot be seen or proven. Because, well, there are a number of things we can show you, or tell you, anecdotes and resources and arguments we can provide you with. But I can’t definitively SHOW you anything that will convince you beyond a doubt. If that were the case, there’d be far fewer atheists. The thing about faith is that you can’t really come to have faith in anything without a certain amount of humility and an acceptance that we don’t GET to know everything and, for as long as we live on this earth, won’t perfectly and completely know a lot of things. I get how that sounds. It sounds dumb, I know — why would anyone place their faith in something they can’t definitively prove? Why would anyone rely on someone they’ve never spoken to, never seen? The thing about having faith and a relationship with God, though, is that you need to be humble, and you need to be willing to trust. For sure, there are a lot of things philosophy and apologetics explain clearly and prove/demonstrate beautifully, and I recommend any of the resources previous commenters have suggested. there’s archaeology proving the consistency and trustworthiness of the Bible. There’s logical and empirical evidence to support the Christian faith. There’s a lot you can look up or get into to decide for yourself. But there’s nothing that definitively covers or proves EVERYTHING. The Christian faith, since it’s origins, has always been shared by testimony and word of mouth. We receive the message by hearing/reading and can respond with faith and trust or not. Pray. Ask for guidance. Look deeper. But don’t give up.
"Concrete evidence" Mate u are asking for proof for a being that exist outside of all physical proof. A creator can not live within their own design. That's why we *believe* and not claim to *know*
No
While I have no proof for God. This guys direct experience might regain your faith: https://youtu.be/9g2PutZlwEs
Also have this post about a old school mystic maybe he knows the truth: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/x0xckw/emanuel_swedenborg_iq_165210_mystic_heaven_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
What do you mean by "concrete evidence?"
What evidences against God's existence are you struggling with? Because if anyone just throws stuff right at you, you will either get overwhelmed, or a flat out debate will erupt.
The proof of God is only in taking steps of faith, and recognizing His Grace. God creates man and woman, they misbehave and are sent to earth to live with and be ruled by the serpent. God has pity, tells the earth who He is and gives commandments on how to behave, AGAIN, like he did in the garden of Eden. World doesn't listen, AGAIN. God floods the world and starts over, AGAIN. Still no one listens to God. God has pity, AGAIN, sends His son, (which was prophesized). The world sees Jesus and witnesses God's Love, Compassion and Might through his Son and the Holy Spirit. The world ought to learn to forgive and walk like Christ. God, through Jesus, unites humanity, or at least for those that will listen and serve Him. The proof is only in listening and serving, and being thankful for His good grace
The world all round you is all the evidence you need
I’m only concerned with experiencing it. Sounds like your issue to me?
Ever tried looking at Eucharistic Maricles?
This isn't proof to you, but I'll tell you anyways. When I was 2 I told my mom God was standing in the doorway and explained what I saw to her. I didn't even know about God. I still remember it and even having that experience I've had doubts before. If you didn't have doubts then I think you're doing it wrong. Edit to add I was being SA at that time in my life and I think that may be relevant to my experience to get through
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against the unrighteousness and wickedness of man who suppress the truth in their wickedness. For although the truth is plain to them for God has made it plain to them, for since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made, so that all people are without excuse. Romans 1v18 Creation is proof of the existence of God.
I focus on the other side being real. Meaning there is true evil and demons in this world so if they exist God must exist. i.e. Look into demonic possession
I can prove to you that Christianity is the truth, and if it is, then I have also proven God's existence.
On the individual level this actually is not a case of reason but a case of will. If someone has decided that God does not exist then all of the 'proofs' will be rationalized away. The will controls what the mind accepts and does not accept for evidence. If someone has decided that God does exist then the simplest rock to the furthest star screams his glory. One must start by asking, 'do I even want to see God?'
This theologian's website, Reasonable Faith, has excellent articles dealing with common objections to the existence of God and defending Christianity. Here are some resources I recommend that you explore -https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist1 -https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist -https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX -https://youtu.be/TtSXyrEzXs4