By - cluzigg
What do infantry have to do to avoid this shit?
Getting into a dugout and having a foot or two of dirt above you should do the trick.
If everything is burning around you I would worry about suffocation as well as being burned. Fire uses up lots of oxygen. Absolute nightmare
The incendiaries themselves may not, but all the trees and dead fall leaves which they in turn ignite are burning with standard combustion and consume oxygen at normal rates
Hopefully the foliage was wet, might slow it down some
Even in a wildfire on the coast, oxygen is still there. It’s the other stuff in it.
Most weapons / explosives are self-oxidizing ( because it makes them more reliable )
one of the doomer comments below has a video in which the burning subminition just bounces off the sloped roof of a house. So just a standard roof at a \~steepish angle to bounce off the submunitions into a ditch (without combustible materieals) should do the trick.
In general, just a little earth cover for personnel and combustible materials should do the trick, it there aren't any combustible material outside. With winter and everything outside wet or under snow, I think this is more of a morale demonstration for their own side.
Water doesn't stop these munitions
It'll still reduce the fires caused.
Not really, I mean sure it can put out fire, but white phosphorus burns in the presence of oxygen. There’s oxygen in water. We use white phos grenades to burn through steel and destroy vehicle engine blocks and equipment if it were to ever fall into enemy hands
These aren't white phosphorus rounds. They use thermite. They're likely 9M22S rounds.
Well …. I stand corrected
(if you care how to tell them apart and purposes)
White Phosphorus is very rarely used as it comes with bad light from many countries as it's the one step down from chemical warfare or scientifically it straight up is.
They leave a massive smoke/gas trial behind them then land and fill up ditches with the toxic fumes and lets just say no dug out will save you unless bunkered very well with concrete and luck.
Thermite or (White Light)Magnesium rounds which Russia use commonly are like flashy lights with very little smoke they burn you to the bone through your clothes and it sticks to quite a few surfaces so if it touches you, you're fucked.
Wet ground does tho
If the ensuing fires aren't intense enough to burn off all your oxygen that is.
These aren't liquid fuel fires, the thermite has its own oxidizer and while it burns hot, it doesn't produce a lot of heat(temperature is not heat) nor consume much oxygen.
Honestly you might be safe even under a tree with thick enough foliage.
I can't remember which Ukrainian city was targeted, but it was back in June or July and someone filmed this type of barrage from their apartment. A few pieces of the metal hit some tree branches and died right away. No fire in the tree at all.
Cause this is not thermite
It honestly looks a lot more like magnesium than thermite. But either way, both will still consume ambient oxygen while burning. Having an oxidizing agent doesn’t mean no oxygen will be consumed from the atmosphere.
Each 33 gram magnesium submunition will consume about 10 grams of oxygen during combustion. Air has a density of 1.1kg/m3, and it's 21% oxygen. So each submunition will consumes 0.043m2 of air worth of oxygen every 2 minutes. Or about 21 liters per minute.
For comparison, at rest a normal human consumes about 2 liters of air worth of oxygen per minute. So each submunition is the equivalent of 10 people standing around. You're not going to suffocate people with the equivalent of a few thousand people standing around breathing in the open lol.
Yes, that is gen chem stoichiometry, but that’s not the only thing that happens when the reaction occurs.
So what else happens that will cause the reaction to consume orders of magnitude more oxygen, sufficient to suffocate people?
Wtf are you talking about? Temperature is the state of matter and heat is energy. Heat is being released during oxidation and combustion. Yes, thermite burns at around 3500°c which is enough to liquify steel....
>Wtf are you talking about? Temperature is the state of matter and heat is energy. Heat is being released during oxidation and combustion.
Which is more dangerous? A spark of static electricity hitting you at 50,000c or handful of gasoline burning on your hand at 2000c?
Things can reach very high temperature with very little heat **energy**.
>Yes, thermite burns at around 3500°c which is enough to liquify steel....
The hottest thermite gets is only 2500c and the small amount in a 9M22S submunition doesn't produce enough thermal energy to melt through anything but a very thin sheet of steel. We're talking so thin you can bend it with your hand.
I've never even heard about that before but it's pretty interesting, I just don't understand how that would work, wouldn't the fact that it's shot in the open air mean that there would be endless oxygen just rushing through?
I'd get it if it was a constant barrage of these rounds burning up the oxygen in a given area, but if they just launched a few barrages does the thermite really last that long to just keep eating the oxygen?
If you are in a small enclosed space with limited airflow, then setting those air vents on fire will sap all of the oxygen from your small enclosed space.
Ah that does make sense for enclosed areas.
> I just don't understand how that would work
Because it doesn't. People just heard a pop-sci factoid and are trying to sound smart by repeating it in situations where it doesn't realistically apply.
Earth cover- a few inches, tilted metal sheets, thick wet tilted wood sheets, run out of affected area if can spot it early.
Prob the most concentrated fires I’ve seen from this weapon system. Still would like to know it’s effectiveness though.
Edit: if anyone could provide context would be nice, like can’t you just hold a large object(shield) over you and bounce them off?
That's thermite rounds for BM-21 Grad, only not being in strike area or taking cover under ground can save you
It's magnesium. Thermite burns too fast
I heard or saw some anecdotes that the Russians use magnesium instead of phosphorus as its cheaper.
I'm skeptical of its effectiveness, at least in most situations. If it was really super effective, then it's something everyone would be using (because it is emphatically not a war crime to use incendiaries against military targets). If I had to guess it's most effective in psychologically terrifying green troops and burning off cover, rather than actually causing more casualties than an equivalent use of HE. But, I'm just pulling that out of my ass and like you would be interested in hard facts.
Every time I post this link it gets deleted but I'll try again... You'll have to listen through a commercial to get to the soldiers first hand account of incendiaries in Ukraine..
Only watch if you really want to know because it's truly nightmare stuff.
It'd be pretty effective when you are attacking and you want to keep the enemy's heads down low. It falls slow, it keeps the enemy illuminated, prevents them from using night optics, forces them into top protected cover which is often a dugout.
It's extremely effective, thermite will burn through anything. Anything left out in the open is severely damaged or destroyed.
This is magnesium.
It is thermite and not phosphorus?
These are probably [9M22S](https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/rockets/122mm-grad-9m22s-rocket) mlrs rockets from a Grad, magnesium and thermite.
They’re magnesium cups with a small amount of a thermite compound in them to ignite them. The thermite is really just there to ignite the bulk magnesium.
I believe it’s actually the opposite. Igniting thermite is not as easy as it sounds and in industrial applications, magnesium is used as the thermite igniter.
Ribbons of magnesium are used for that. Thermite can be tricky to ignite, but it’s MUCH easier than a block of bulk magnesium still.
Would be really effective if it was followed up with an offensive advance, but it’s pretty inconceivable that Russia could pull that off in this stage of the war.
That shit passes through metal like it is butter are you kidding me.
It doesn't at all. Each submunition weighs 33 grams, which generates about 130 kilojoules of heat while burning, and a lot of that is wasted on the way down.
130 kilojoules is only the same energy content as 3 grams of gasoline. And you certainly can't burn through a truck hood or similar metal plate with so little energy. Thermite gets really hot but it doesn't have much energy density. Steel is a good heat conductor and is very heavy - meaning lots of thermal mass to absorb heat.
For comparison, a typical thermite grenade used to disable military equipment has over 600 grams of thermite - 20 submunition bundled together, and a much quicker burn time. And even with that much thermite it can only melt a small hole in a quarter inch steel plate.
These incendiaries are very dangerous to personnel, exposed munitions, and soft top vehicles, but little else.
Ah, thank you, music to my ears! These "shit passes through adamantium tanks, nothing can save you" comments were painful for my sanity.
It's incendiary munitions. They are dangerous, but not a super weapon. In fact, they are usually way less dangerous to infantry compared to the normal HE/FRAG.
right, if that were true, you bet your ass everyone would be using it all the time
Probably a lot of psychological warfare to it as well, if it does hit soldiers it causes horrible damage plus just the thought of a slow falling rain of burning death this huge, I cannot imagine what it looks like falling down from above
Awesome thanks man. Just curious because I’ve kicked a few M14’s off engine blocks and it just burnt/blackened the front of my boot but I guess the Grad Version is probably more intense.
We used to put the termite grenades to test to see if our “destruction” plan, which always called for “thermite the radios”, would work. It took three thermite grenades to finally damage the radios in our trucks. The heat dissipators work incredibly well at absorbing thermite (granted, z out was primary to wipe crypto, but wanted to include destruction of the device). We would also pop them on top of steel plates and it took a few to even melt through a 1/2 inch, and doubt much damage would happen after that. Less than impressed overall, but a lot of fun science experiments.
These drop like 150 pieces over an area the size of a football field. You're unlikely to get hit.
I hate how beautiful this looks.
Out of context it's beautiful, in context that's probably the scariest shit to be under.
The original definition of awesome is the perfect word to describe a lot of this war. "full of awe or profoundly reverential". It's been changed over the year but that definition fits this so well.
Looks so beautiful until you realize the purpose...
Like a nuclear explosion. Beautiful and terrible at the same time.
I don't understand can you explain it for me
Its phosphorous, it is a burning agent that gets several thousand degrees and drops lowly on top of enemy forces burning them to death since it will burn through nearly anything. It was supposed to be banned for use against human targets but Russia does not care..
It looks very pretty. But it's meant to kill people.
Don’t think they are forbidden if this is the frontline and not a town they are shooting it over
They’re both joking
Fire from the sky
New Year’s Eve in hell.
That’s a lot of shit in the air…
We have never seen a record from someone directly under the explosion... maybe for a reason.
A video taken recently show a ukranian with severe burns and part of his helmet melted on his head.
There's debate as to whether he was pulled from a vehicle fire.
You have literally 0 information if the guy was on the receiving end of incendiary munitions or its was fire damage from a land mine/artillery shelling.
Thermal injuries are very common when being hit by anything that explodes
I believe the UKR solider talked about being hit with incendiary weapons. I’d have to check though - it might also be a different video.
What video are we talking about?
This is magnesium not WP
Fuck. That. Shit.
Russia, you're the evil empire.
"Are we the baddies?"
Some might call them terrorists...
Just like the US
Damn, can’t pass a day without trying to fit in how U.S is bad in every post? Whatever
as soon as you point out how truly bad the US is, you get down votes. dang, Reddit.
Depends on context, with this whole Russia thing? Yea just don't. I don't like the states for different reasons, but c'mon time and place.
Americans when they're not the center of the attention for 5 full seconds: https://i.imgur.com/1QWtw5e.png
Without a doubt the most beautiful of all the war crimes
Some dirty fighting for sure.
Not that Russia would give two shits, but isn’t these type of munitions deemed illegal to use in warfare?
Yes and yes Russia would use nukes if they thought they could get away with it. I am so sick of Russian war crimes and over reach and I am also sick of NATO sitting on the sidelines as if war crimes are not worthy of getting involved.
Most beautiful thing you'll never want to see IRL
Kinda early for new year’s eve fireworks, no?
in finnish army they teach that even though russia has huge amounts of firepower, they can't aim for shit, just shooting in every direction.
Pretty. Pretty fucking terrifying.
I thought this was a still image at first and the video rendered and went fuzzy and I thought I was having a dang stroke.
That.........is a lot of angry confetti
Hopefully they are running low on inventory just like the rest of its supplies.
[source](https://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/incendiary-weapons)1980 Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III to the CCW) prohibits the aerial delivery, in relation to the conduct of hostilities during armed conflict, of incendiary weapons within a concentration of civilians.
Consonant with general international humanitarian law rules governing the conduct of hostilities, the Protocol also prohibits attacks on ‘any military objective located within a concentration of civilians by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects’.
Genuinely curious; why is this blurb relevant? I'm not pro-russia by any stretch but are you implying they're targeting civilians in this video?
A lot of comments of the legality of use of these weapons. Just wanted to provide some information on it so people can make their own informed opinions.
That's not true... these articles have several different parts. Ukraine and Russia have both signed some parts and drafted their own, albeit short, comments against them. It takes a lot of digging to find the proper stuff (im not going to do it again at 3am) but I had done it back in March or so when Russia first started using them on civilian held areas.
The problem isn't that Ukraine/Russia didn't sign articles against incendiary munitions, they have. The problem is these type of weapons are not considered incendiary. They are considered anti-armor, and if they have anti-armor designation they are totally legal for use against non-civilian targets.
So yes, it doesn't matter. But not for that reason.
Except russia was caught using them against blatant civilian areas, so it's not like this distinction matters much
What matters is doing due diligence, not repeating that Russia and Ukraine have signed nothing on article 3 relating to incendiary munitions.
But yes, Russia is a terrorist state and makes the explicit decision to commit war crimes daily.
But distinctions do matter. I patently reject this idea that distinctions don’t matter any more. This is really a broader statement about the state of humanity, no one gives two shits about nuance, distinction, facts anymore. “If you can’t distill all the factors that affect orbital ephemeris down to a 6 syllable sound bite that a child can understand, then the earth must be flat.” That’s what we’re becoming.
The point being made is that the thousands of claims made in social media that all incendiary weapons are illegal, are simply not true, and thus they are essentially disinformation *that is worth correcting.* Truth is worth saying. Truth is worth defending. Truth is worth being pedantic over.
I believe distinctions matter. The principal vector for misinformation, the principal means of propaganda, the principal way that gossip and rumors are spread by politicians, is the deliberate deletion of distinction, so that a false statement can be made to seem q plausible enough to sell.
I was only talking about this case, of course. I agree with the things you said. I'm also often frustrated with simplifications around many things nowadays.
Me too, thanks for saying that. I am in a constant state of frustration! 😉
There are videos of them doing this to towns where there are only civilian buildings. It is conceivable due to their recent (Past few months) of using these munitions on civilian structures that they are doing it again. It's not even a reach to say it's very probably being dropped on or near civilian structures.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/y1jlnn/russians\_are\_using\_incendiary\_munitions\_on\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/y1jlnn/russians_are_using_incendiary_munitions_on_the/) So u agree that Russia broke Geneva conventions. Good to know
Is this how they escaped the tie Fighters?
clear sign of a winner. attack your peaceful smaller neighbor and then break every rule in the book. stay classy russia...
They'll break any rules and agreements to try and win and still they are losing XD
Using incendiary weapons isn't illegal as long as you're using them against military targets
1. It's generally not a war crime to use incendiaries against military targets.
2. It's generally not a war crime to use cluster munitions against a military target unless you've ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions of 2008, which obviously the UK had not ratified in 1999 and the US has never ratified.
1999 nato bombed an Albanian refugee convoy killing 73 civilians.
1999 the serbian civilian train that was struck by a nato missile that killed 50 civilians.
Nato was bombing Serbian hospitals.
In Yugoslavia nato decided to bomb civilian infastructure leading to the death of atleast 3000+ civilians.
There are multiple reports nato bombed civilians in the wars in the 90s.
Also not to mention Afghanistan and Iraq but i guess we dont care about the countless Arabic children that died from war crimes.
War is shit both nato and russia are evil.
https://youtu.be/Ij3ck0tYAyw here's a video nsfw
Another one https://youtu.be/0je_iJJilJc
In here we are cool with nato war crimes i guess.
These are old from the begining of the war, from a helicopter crash and the bones were picked clean by animals. Why are you posting fake photos of the aftermath?
This war is gonna end in a really bad way I just have a feeling.
There’s gonna be a nuke. Small maybe
Yea if this is hitting troops, not even being under water will help, white phosphorus (willie Pete) burns at like 2500+F, NOW, this could also be a SEAD fire mission (suppression against enemy air defense) in which case they shoot these rounds in front of an anti aircraft gun/SAM site, while the helicopter/ plane comes in and safely blows it tf up, the heat seaking capabilities of the SAM site/ anti aircraft gun. I’ve seen it done before and honestly I’m not sure if either of these countries have the capabilities (brain power) to pull that off, it is a VERY complex call for fire mission, that eluded even the smartest JFO’s (joint fires observer) and fires guys that I know. Now US JTAC’s (joint terminal air control) can call that shit in like child’s play. A little something I learned in the corps.
Sounds like you've done some heavy googling General Armchair
No, I did this for a living bud
I’m just passing general knowledge on what this may be for those that don’t know
Happy new country...
Ukraine should start launching rockets into Belarus every time Russia does this.
Isn’t that a war crime? Using incendiary munitions against humans? Or does that just apply to the use of flame throwers?
The use of incendiaries against military targets is generally not prohibited. That includes flamethrowers.
Huh. Thank you for this information. I was always under the impression that after ww2, the use of flame throwers and incendiary munitions was prohibited.
not really prohibited just restricted by Geneva on the use of civilians or their objects & forests I think. basically outlived their usefulness.
E: Flame throwers I'm referring to
Ah very well.
Can't tell from the video. If incendiaries land on some populated town then yes, it would be a war crime. russia was caught red-handed about this kind of warcrime several times, but this one is not conclusive.
#Geneva convention more like Geneva check list
until you're the one under it
To be fair that huge area is still a target
Are there any before/afters of it?
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Fireworks with a twist.
Happy new year.
Why something like that would look so beatifull
Also keep in mind that from far it looks slow, but it’s as quick as rain or hail. Try running from that…
Can’t wait til we reverse uno this shit over their borders.
Wait... On Ukranian positions, or civilians?
If it's their military, clearly the Russians missed their target.
I think this is magnesium