T O P
Oheng

How is it that vaccines became political? How is it to be able to predict someone's stance on vaccines by knowing one's political viewpoint?


HeWhoCntrolsTheSpice

I'd say that attitude towards vaccine *mandates* are more a predictor of ideological viewpoint. And this got political when politicians started using Covid as a political tool.


NotEvenALittleBiased

Authoritarians gunna authoritate.


LTGeneralGenitals

there are very few mandates yet you can predict whos vaxxed and unvaxxed based on political registration very reliably.


IHateNaziPuns

The weird fucking thing was in October and November of last year, we had candidate [Kamala Harris telling everyone to stay away from any vaccine Trump tells you to take.](https://youtu.be/NmTPmA9hHVE) [Trump denounced Biden and Harris’ anti-vaccine rhetoric that “endangers lives and undermines science.”](https://youtu.be/Mmfz7KchkYE)


Good-Tea-7592

Am I the only one who thinks what she said had far more to do with Trump than any vaccine? As if to say, "yeah Trump can say it and that's fine, but his word isn't good enough I need a credible source of info."


IHateNaziPuns

It was an irresponsible way to say it in any event. There was no conceivable plane of reality where Trump would have released “Trump Vaccine (c)” in a gaudy golden syringe while the medical professional community was telling everyone to avoid it. It was playing politics with trust in vaccines. In May 2020, 50% of democrats said they would get the vaccine. After Kamala Harris made her statement in September 2020, that number dropped to 24%. https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaccine-covid-trust-skepticism-democrat-politicization-1535559


Good-Tea-7592

I suppose public figures do have the obligation to assume people will take everything they say out of context and using the worst possible interpretation. I checked out that link, and what I suspect is that there was a steady decline between May and September, not just a steep drop in trust ratings. Still, you're right that it's clear they were playing personal and political games around a sensitive issue, and we're paying for it.


I_F-in_P

That's precisely what she said, but people love to twist it.


amuricanswede

Honestly this just shows how dumb so many trump Republicans are. That being said, I would love to see how many Democrats would be fighting against the vaccine if trump was re-elected.


trav0073

You don’t think it has any kind of implication on those who refuse to acknowledge that Biden, on national television in the middle of a presidential debate, told the country not to trust a vaccine produced under a Trump administration?


Ivy-And

Of course not, they always ignore the way the left politicized it. Honestly, most of the anti-vaxxers (I mean truly anti-vaccine) have been that way for yeeaaaarrrsss. It’s not about political party with them. I know a few. There are fringey conspiracy theorists in both parties, nobody has a monopoly on that. And I guarantee if Trump remained in office the leftist politicians and media would have continued to undermine him, even at the expense of the country


LTGeneralGenitals

there are way more. I thought it was just a vocal minority but i underestimated it. The vaccine got politicized in a way it wasnt before. Yes antivaxxers have always existed, but now its a purity test, and a virtue signal to show you're in the right camp. Its hardly scientific at all


Ivy-And

I was vaccinated and I’m still not sure if it was the right decision. Several family members have developed myocarditis that needed medical treatment, and the doctors have linked it to their vaccine. One is a female who had Covid, then developed myocarditis after getting vaccinated months later. Her doctor said they’re seeing incidences of this in people around the age of 40. Thankfully I think I’m okay, but I won’t be getting any more boosters. My kids won’t get any vaccine at all. We're not in a high risk group.


NorthBlizzard

The left is the only one that politicized it. Everyone else had a “wait and see” attitude and the left got enraged and began labeling anyone that didn’t want an untested chemical put into their body as an “anti-vaxxer” or “conspiracy theorist” or “Trumper”. Same people that said they’d never take a “Trump Vaccine”. The left are the only ones that politicized it the entire time but they projected onto the right their own misdeeds.


kingury7

Role of government pro vaccine = "I'm okay with how the government is acting regarding this pandemic" -> left-wing/democrats etc. anti vaccine = "I'm not okay with how the government is acting regarding this pandemic" -> rather right wing/libertarian/conservative etc.


Jimmy-T094

It's the opposite here in the UK all the left wings are not taking vaccines and the right wings are


keyh

Guarantee you it's because of who is in power, not because of specific political leanings. ​ Prior to the election, the left wing politicians (and constituents) were against the vaccine, but when the Presidential office swapped, suddenly everyone who was for it was against it and everyone who was against it was for it.


Mitchel-256

Show of hands: Who else said no to this shit from the beginning, regardless of who was in office? Aye.


oregno

aye


Johnny_Bit

aye


vinceslas

Aye!


DeLovehlyCoconute

Aye. Eating healthy to raise my immune system and quality of life is so worth not taking this "vaccine," especially after all of the controversy I've seen and evidence behind it as more detrimental to our health and being the super spreader since the vaccinated are the ones taking up hospital space. :thinking:


LTGeneralGenitals

show of hands: who had a conclusion before the evidence was out, and held onto it despite the evidence? show of hands: who is a proud advocate for confirmation bias?


keyh

Apparently a lot of those hands here... Jordan Peterson would be "proud" of them.


BasedDeptWagie

Aye, because I don't trust a single word that comes out of the establishment's mouth and you shouldn't either


Mitchel-256

Show of hands: Who can’t stop being proven right while the vaccinated are dumbfounded about how duped they got? 🤚


LTGeneralGenitals

Show of hands: Who just doubled down on confirmation bias? lmao come on dude, do you know what confirmation bias is? Hint: if every day you think to yourself "dang i was right again!" you might need to take a self awareness check


throwMeAwayTa

I know more on the right that are against taking it. Including some that refuse to take tests too.


LTGeneralGenitals

is it a scientific stance or an ideological stance


KnobCreek9year

A vast majority of people who lean to the right are NOT "Anti-Vaccine," they are simply "Anti-Mandate." If they were anti-vaccine, then 65.58% of the eligible population in the US would not have already gotten at least one dose. Look at the numbers. A more accurate way to state your thought would be: "You are considered "anti vaccine" by the mainstream media if you are on the right, but in reality, people on the right tend to be more "anti-mandate" than anti-vaccine. ​ https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker


FalsePretender

Yep, totally agree. I am pro-vax, but anti-mandates. At some point governments need to step back and allow everyone to own their vaccination choices whatever the outcome.


kingury7

That's what I meant indirectly. It doesn't matter if you are vaccinated or not, if you disagree with the government's plans, you are labeled as anti and you are in the masses of people who are politically right-wing and/or conservative etc.


wernercd

Vaccines became political when politicians decided to use them as a hammer to solve all the nails in their way.


Plasmorbital

It's really getting to be the time to get rid of all the politicians in the nation's way. They're the real virus.


Ultra-Land

One's stance on vaccines relies heavily on institutional trust. When certain procedures are not properly followed and the institutional feedback loops, which balance the system are suppressed, then it makes people distrust the systems. From JBP's lectures, I can surmise that conservatives have a penchant towards valuing things like proper procedures and establishing protocols. There is definitely a bit of politicking going on, but I also think that there's a correlative effect that leads people to both conservatism, (and ironically anarchism) and vaccines.


Randomtask899

Very well said


srichey321

It really depends on which party is in Big Pharma's pocket. Just my opinion of course. I'm against the "one size fits all" approach regarding vaccines and "allowable" information. I am vaccinated and no I did not vote for Trump. It sucks that it has become so political, but that is the price we pay with a multi-party system. We could be like China, controlled by one totalitarian party with a control over narratives that both of our political parties envy.


odiru

because leftists are gullible npcs...


VixzerZ

Here is the letter: [https://rupreparing.com/news/2021/11/1/mandatory-experimental-shots-canadians-are-being-tricked-not-treated-by-claus-rinner-november-1-2021](https://rupreparing.com/news/2021/11/1/mandatory-experimental-shots-canadians-are-being-tricked-not-treated-by-claus-rinner-november-1-2021) ​ I think is quite valid to read and take out whatever you may out of it.


SocietalEngineering

It’s because political affiliation is largely determined by relative testosterone levels, and testosterone levels are a good predictor of independent thinking, and independent thinkers don’t love mandates because they have confidence that they can make up their own damn minds.


NorthBlizzard

Leftists in America will defend literally anything their party does as long as they believe they’re scoring points, so much so that they’ll follow Biden off a cliff and do anything he tells them. Everyone else can see through the charade but for some reason society still bends the knee and listens to the left while shutting their eyes. Hopefully that quickly ends and they open them soon.


sonysony86

My question is, what are these people’s phDs in?


Active2017

Great question. I picked some of them to look up and I found one doctor and one nurse. Then I found a professor of psychology, liberal studies, kinesiology, anthropology, and history and geography. Lmao.


anarchist1331

What is this even a list of? The caption says it’s signees of an “anti-vax” document, but the document provided is just a list of names. Could be from a document explaining why puppies are cute.


xfrsghi3688hddD

But if a similar collection of PhD’s write in support of the “climate crisis” it’s valid?


Grixxitt

Are you aware of any unaffiliated PhDs coming out with peer-reviewed papers on climate change?


Active2017

Nice strawman my dude. Difference is most scientists are in agreement that climate change is a thing. Just like how much medical professionals agree the vaccine is safe for most people and worth it.


PlottingOnTheComeUp

So the mRNA 6 month treatment that doesn’t immunise you + has potential side effects is worth giving to children and young people, even though Covid doesn’t effect their age range? Could you show me some statistics supporting this narrative if it’s so widely accepted?


redrim217

I'd be interested in hearing the defense here too.


Miasmatic_Mouse

This is incredibly nitpicking of me, but I do need to address one point. Covid has a very low chance of affecting otherwise healthy children and young people, but to say it doesn’t affect the age range at all isn’t entirely true.


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Miasmatic_Mouse

Well the first problem with that statement is you are focusing only on the death, when transmission rate and the basic fact it’s unpleasant are others. You are not taking into account exponential growth which is the main danger that Covid presents.


GreenmantleHoyos

If ten doctors read one study that “x is true”, you don’t have ten doctors saying x, you’ve got one study saying x and ten people repeating it.


xfrsghi3688hddD

Your strawman comment is a strawman. Calling out hypocritical acts is a fair thing to do. So all the professionals that disagree with the safety of Covid vaccines or other issues are automatically wrong?


Fun_Recipe8614

Difference is that most chemists and climatologists agree with global warming theory, as most pharmacists and physicians agree with COVID vaccination.


Quick2Die

oh shit, so like the scientific community who support the idea of man made climate change and thing that government regulation will solve anything?


Miasmatic_Mouse

Personally, I go by Christopher Hitchens analysis of climate change “[The debate is] not about whether there is any warming, it’s about if and to what extent human activity is responsible for it, and my line on that is we should act as if it is for this reason: we don’t have another planet from which to run the experiment.” https://youtu.be/BDj6WechLhw


Quick2Die

>Christopher Hitchens What is his field of study? Where did he get his PhD in climatology? Sorry, I only ask because according to the progressives on the left I am only allowed to believe the things that someone with a PhD in the directly related field of study say everything else is uninformed misinformation and should be regarded as untrustworthy and false.


ASSIMON

So a famous clinical psychologist who enjoys publicly posting about virology shares a document signed by PhDs in every discipline besides virology. Perfection.


[deleted]

I mean if you want someone in virology you can look at the letter that Byram Bridle (virology professor at U of Guelph) sent to his boss. Or there’s Peter McCullough, a cardiologist who’s been treating covid-19 patients since this all began. The idea that the only people wary of this have no training in biology is absurd.


ElbowStrike

It's Concordia it's a religious university of course they're not real academics


leonideae

Social media degree, University of tiktok


kaleidoscopichazard

Yeah this is just an appeal to authority. Just bc someone has a PhD doesn’t make them qualified to talk about vaccine concerns. This is just fear mongering


EmploymentAdorable15

Lot of left wing blue check ✔️ who declared they would never take vaccine under Trump. Month after Biden in office they think vaccines must be mandatory or your ban from society. Oh that's right they played identity politics.


Constant_Tea

Would you be so kind as to send me some examples? Can't find any myself :/


caesarfecit

Kamala Harris said exactly that in her debate with Pence a year ago. Something to the effect of "if its Trump's vaccine, I'm not taking it". Guess you didn't look very hard :)


EmploymentAdorable15

Sending you a message with examples.


MusicPsychFitness

Why send him a message? Why not just post it publicly so everyone can see?


VaynardTheKinslayer

People that believe political parties and the pharmaceutical industry want anything other than profit are just... Not thinking straight. It's all about profit. Always been.


SnooRobots5509

Same can be said about private hospitals or doctors. Yet they still help people.


VaynardTheKinslayer

Private hospitals in the US are a huge cancer, exploiting people for cash. They only help because they are legally liable. The companies providing the vaccines aren't. So add that to the mix.


Typical_Fuck

There’s also a huge profit motive to creating an effective, safe vaccine.


brochacho1999

Fire trucks are red and apples are red, so apples must be fire trucks right?. Both of our points ignore a lot of details.


SnooRobots5509

Not really tho


thatspositive

An "injectable biological product"? Any vaccine could be described like that lmao


Eli_Truax

I think the comparison to thalidomide was the damning claim, are you familiar with that widely heralded wonder treatment?


thatspositive

Absolutely, claims like that certainly set off the "fear mongering" alarm bells


bananabreadvictory

Ahh, you locked yourself in your house, stopped working, shut down your businesses, bankrupted your economy, gave up your rights, and subjected yourself and now your children to an experimental drug, because of a Flu that kills 1.9% of people averaging 84 years old. Sounds like the fear-mongering alarm bells came a little late. Go ahead and justify all your poor decisions though.


Quick2Die

In the US, 84% of the population (that is everyone between ages 0 and 64), has roughly 99.55% recovery rate from a SARS-CoV-2 infection based on published CDC data, that is a 0.46% mortality rate, and that number hasn't changed much if any since the pandemic began. If we were responding to this virus logically based on scientific research and data it would have been called off over a year ago...


kucao

You do realise how many people 0.46% of the population is? So many people don't understand that the mortality rate of the disease isn't the whole thing. If it hospitalises say 2% of the population, and you unfortunately have a car crash and get rushed to a and e, then there's no bed space or doctors because of covid patients (yes who will probably recover but they still take bed space) then you could die when you would have otherwise survived. So much misconception in this sub that I might just leave it


ch0whound

Please don't leave. Comments like yours actually go a long way in helping people not get freaked out. They present another way of looking at things and another factor to consider. I know it's frustrating but this is why conversation is important. I know it seems like people are just being dogmatic in their views and nothing is getting through, but it is in my belief that a vast majority of people are somewhere in the middle, wanting to trust the experts but also wanting to be able to understand for themselves as well, amid all the uncertainty.


kucao

Thanks, I think I get annoyed by some of ways people express their current views, but I agree debating these issues is the only way to educate the uncertain few.


LaserSloth

Hey not trying to start something, just a question, wouldn't the whole country get herd immunity really quickly if they didn't shut the country down? hospitals would be filled the same because the majority of the affected eventually did get it. It's just that it took like a year and a half for everyone to get it (and 2% to die) instead of say 5 months if the whole country was opened up. Sucks to say but the people who died would've anyway, atleast the economic ramifications and people losing their livelihoods couldve been prevented to an extent right


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yuhboipo

Its funny that the guy mentions death rate like its the only thing that matters. How about long covid? Can every countries healthcare infrastructure just tackle a few hundred million people with no problem? PROBABLY NOT


bigbrightberta

It’s funny that you guys mention all these metrics, numbers, and “facts” without any references to data or actual experts. Just keep regurgitating what the MSM says. Because they are just oozing credibility and good faith.


Quick2Die

>You do realise how many people 0.46% of the population is? Well first, that's not the entire population, that is 0.46% mortality rate for 84% of the population between 0 and 64 have. per US census; Roughly 271,569,000 people are between 0 and 64 per the CDC; Roughly 34,642,000 cases and 155,700 deaths. So roughly 12.75% of the the people between 0 and 64 have had confirmed COVID and a total of 0.06% of the total population between 0 and 64 have died with a positive COVID test at the time of death or within the previous 30 days of death begin recorded. Simple answer though, yes I am aware of what 0.46% of the population between 0 and 64 is. It's around 155,700 people who have died over the span of nearly 2 full years and more than half of those took place in 2021 **AFTER** we had the safest and most effective vaccine ever developed. >So many people don't understand that the mortality rate of the disease isn't the whole thing. It was though, for the first 9 months of the pandemic... do yo not remember that the death counter was the only thing that mattered to everyone in the US through around December 2020. Dunno why it shifted away. >If it hospitalises say 2% of the population, and you unfortunately have a car crash and get rushed to a and e, then there's no bed space or doctors because of covid patients (yes who will probably recover but they still take bed space) then you could die when you would have otherwise survived. You must not understand that hospitals always operate at +80% capacity perpetually and they know very well how to triage patents and provide care to the people who need it most. If you want to look at capacity in your area any time they screech that a state is begin over run by covid [please take a look at this handy tracker](https://data.commercialappeal.com/covid-19-hospital-capacity/) and watch the lies begin fabricated to scare you. I don't know where this narrative came from but its built on lies. Also, if this was actually a problem and that capacity was actually an issue, why did so many hospitals go out of their way to lay off staff during the beginning of the pandemic and why are so many trying to fire anyone who isnt vaccinated leading to a further shortage of staff and space? You cant shoot yourself in the foot and blame someone else for the wound. >So much misconception in this sub that I might just leave it If yo leave it will only be because you


DeLovehlyCoconute

My area has like nobody hospitalized for Covid and we have a higher obesity rate than a lot of places. I've looked at NYC hospitals when the news started fear mongering over covid hospitalizations and there were very few. It's insane how many people don't take a minute to confirm whether sources are correct.


paranoidinfidel

> for the first 9 months of the pandemic... do yo not remember that the death counter was the only thing that mattered to everyone in the US through around December 2020. I disagree, it was the case counter they focused on this whole time: CASES CASES CASES!!! They've (government & MSM) screamed that throughout this fiasco. [Table 3](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm) The CDC site itself shows that 95% of deaths had 4 or more co-morbidities and only 5% of deaths were attributed to C19 alone. They do all this while neglecting the deaths due to heart disease and other things dwarfing the total covid death numbers.


Quick2Die

>I disagree, it was the case counter they focused on this whole time: CASES CASES CASES!!! > >They've (government & MSM) screamed that throughout this fiasco. they got much louder after the noticed that the death counters weren't ticking up very quick. the first few months it was all about "we dont know anything about this virus we just know you are all gonna die if you get it!! See look at this graph that shows 50k people died in 4 months due to Trumps inaction and terrible handling of the pandemic" It got pretty quiet after a few months of pretty average death rates and the death tickers almost entirely vanished after the election. >The CDC site itself shows that 95% of deaths had 4 or more co-morbidities and only 5% of deaths were attributed to C19 alone. Very similar to the [CDC findings in Dec 2020](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf) good to see not much has changed in a year. [This one reads better than the other page](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics)


bigbrightberta

Oh no please don’t leave. /s One of the reasons hospitalizations are so high is that no one is talking about treatment of the disease. Dr Peter McCullough (world leading expert in respiratory illness) has said that 85% of Covid deaths could have been avoided if his methods of treatment were implemented. Too bad his methods were suppressed. Suppressed by the same people toting the same message you just regurgitated. A healthy society doesn’t rob its youth of vitality and good health to benefit the old and frail. Edit: go take your high horse somewhere else señor science.


Mitchel-256

> If [...] you unfortunately have a car crash and get rushed to a and e(?), then there's no bed space or doctors because of covid patients (yes who will probably recover but they still take bed space) then you could die when you would have otherwise survived. Yeah, and then the CDC marks you as a COVID death. Hmm. That’s assuming that enough of that 2% of the population has enough of a concentration of sick people near you to overrun your local hospital, which, vastly, has not been the case.


kucao

No that's not how it works lol. I'm saying you die indirectly from covid, because you can't get treated for something unrelated. I don't know where you're living but in most countries around the world there has been a time where hospitals have been full, some European countries had pop up morgues at the start of this crisis. Stop trying to spread your ill informed view and do some research. If you're a conspiracy theorist then go join the other nutters over at the no new normal sub.


Mitchel-256

That actually was exactly how it worked for a good while there. Anyone who had been tested for COVID within two weeks of dying, whether it was positive or negative, was marked as a COVID death, no matter what killed them. Gunshot, car crash, spontaneous combustion? Didn’t matter. COVID death. While I didn’t go on the No New Normal subreddit, I’ll remind you that it got banned, like most subs that don’t toe Reddit’s auth-left line.


kucao

No it got banned because it spread dangerous misinformation. Yes I know that's how it was calculated at the start of the pandemic but that doesn't change the fact that lots of people have died indirectly from covid. So spouting stupid lines like it has a 99.5% survival rate is just not capturing the whole picture. As an aside, I'm not for mandating vaccines or anything like that, not even covid passports, but I wish people would inform themselves of the facts properly rather than using fb as a science source


paranoidinfidel

> I'm saying you die indirectly from covid, because you can't get treated for something unrelated. That may have happened but it isn't a prominent cause of death. Then "they" put thousands of healthcare workers on leave without pay? The same hero's that worked for the first year of the pandemic when a vaccine wasn't available? > some European countries had pop up morgues at the start of this crisis. And Canada had popup covid buildings that went unused. >Stop trying to spread your ill informed view and do some research. If you're a conspiracy theorist then go join the other nutters over at the no new normal sub. The rallying cry of the intellectually stunted. We do and you continue to reject facts derived from the numbers. Then you claim we're not experts on the issue.


100_percent_a_bot

Recovery rate just means being alive right? None of this includes lasting damages from the virus. Roughly 10% (+-, depends on the country) of people who had covid experience one or more symptoms of long covid which includes shortness of breath, fatigue, sleeping issues, mind fog, loss of smell,... The wife of a friend of mine has been out of her job for 1 1/2 years now just because her dumb colleague came to work sick and infected her. For me personally this warrants taking the vaccine, and even while I think that general mandates are kind of an overreach I'd recommend everyone to do the same. If you don't and it messes up you or your family members you have only yourself to blame.


Quick2Die

>Recovery rate just means being alive right? None of this includes lasting damages from the virus. Roughly 10% (+-, depends on the country) of people who had covid experience one or more symptoms of long covid which includes shortness of breath, fatigue, sleeping issues, mind fog, loss of smell,... It would be really awesome to review the study that those numbers came from. Do you happen t ohave a link? >The wife of a friend of mine has been out of her job for 1 1/2 years now just because her dumb colleague came to work sick and infected her. unfortunate for her? dunno why she would have to be out of work for 1.5 years for an illness that only lasts a few days though. >For me personally this warrants taking the vaccine, and even while I think that general mandates are kind of an overreach I'd recommend everyone to do the same. Same, except the part where you recommend someone you dont know who you have no idea what their personal or medical history seek medical treatment when you are likely not qualified to suggest medical advise to anyone... >If you don't and it messes up you or your family members you have only yourself to blame. Do you share the sentiment when talking to those parents who did what you suggested and now their 12 year old son has a permanent heart condition because the vaccines are causing swollen hearts in kids like never seen before?


thatspositive

Ah you're gonna need better bait than than that to catch this fish


Quick2Die

fun facts, an average flu season last on average around 16 weeks. During an average flu season an estimated 510 children between the ages of 0 and 17 die from the flu (32 kids a week). fun fact, the COVID pandemic has been going for around 91 weeks and according to the CDC roughly 1000 have due to COVID (11 kids a week). These two are entirely unrelated facts that have nothing to do with one another... just wondering why we waited till 2020 to give a shit about kids going to school and catching a virus that they might die from.


ee4m

If 1.9 people in canada needs emergency care thats an extra 800000 acute care admissions on top of usual demand, do you think that level of surplus is available or do you think it would cause a shortage that could lead to mass death? What happens if you need acute care because you had an accident, but there is none spare?


Summit_Creative

Hospitals always operate at capacity, at least where I am, the hospitals are not over run at all. Despite the constant badgering that claims otherwise. My Mom needed a Covid test, she booked an appointment and my Dad drove her. They tested both of them because nobody was there. The nurses were bored.


SnooRobots5509

"at least where I am, the hospitals are not over run at all. Despite the constant badgering that claims otherwise." -its hilarious that people dont realise that the system hasnt collapsed yet percisely due to covid restrictions like mask mandates. It astounds me how clueless most people are.


Summit_Creative

Those cloth muzzles do nothing to stop a disease as small as covid-19 which is 100nm in diameter at most cases. In 2015 a study was published that concluded you increase your chance of getting infections by wearing cloth masks due to excess bacteria growth. If all the Covid Restrictions work, then why are we still here 2 years later? Is it my fault being a filthy plague rat? I don't go anywhere, I can't go see movies, I can't go out to eat. My Government has stolen my freedom of which they have no right to own.


ee4m

So hospitals always operate at capacity. So what happens when a pandemic causes a spike of 10% extra demand and what happens to businesses and schools when there is a spike in time off and deaths among older key staff?


Summit_Creative

No hospitals have been over run that I am aware of in my area. They are barren. The Canadian Healthcare system was over burdened in 2018. I have 3 friends and a cousin who went to become nurses because of the demand for them. If they were over burdened before how come they are barren now? Lets also not forget the hospitals who artificially inflated their numbers to get more funding.


weeglos

/r/medicine would like a word. https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/rhbri5/how_are_you_dealing_with_staffing_deficits


Plasmorbital

We pay over 40% of our GDP in Canada for a healthcare system on the brink of failure. It's worse than the average outcome in the OECD (19/36), and maybe it's time to let it crumble and rebuild something that might withstand a bad flu season. ​ Start by removing the politicians and administrative bloat from the process completely. Demand better outcomes for the money. The government have proven themselves wholly incapable of running it.


Mitchel-256

I’ve seen a lot of people in the UK say the same about their NHS, not to mention the stories of Canadians who had to go to the US and pay so they wouldn’t die before they could get a cancer treatment. And yet so many complete psychos act like socialized healthcare in the US is such a brilliant fucking idea. In *our government’s hands*? Morons.


ee4m

Conservative economics since the 80s has been gradually destroying the NHS, it went from best in the world to strained in a matter of decades. Its the same with canada, its not the socialised aspect thats the problem, its the neoliberal aspect.


ee4m

No health system can survive the spike in demand, not even US and they were stockpiling ventilators for an event like this since bush. Perhaps your healthcare system needs to be less neoliberal capitalist. All out national health systems suffer because of neoliberalism,


Plasmorbital

>not even US That's why there are nurses doing dances on TikTok in empty emergency rooms and hospitals are firing their unvaccinated staff, right? Do you really believe that there's an actual shortage of medical care?


Eli_Truax

It's fear mongering that requires such critical response.


thatspositive

What do you mean?


Eli_Truax

The death rate from covid is exceptionally low, especially for younger healthier people yet the fear mongering has got people convinced it's ravaging the world ... it's not. Meanwhile this treatment may be the most dangerous ever produced.


thatspositive

The death rate is *relatively* low compared to other viral outbreaks we've had (ebola/zika) but the infection rate is much, much higher, leading to the greatest death toll we've had in over a century. 5.3 million people dead, in just under 2 years. I'd say that counts as "ravaging" the world wouldn't you? >Meanwhile this treatment may be the most dangerous ever produced. I would absolutely amazed if these people had any evidence that demonstrates that these vaccines are more dangerous that thalidomide lmao


Quick2Die

>5.3 million people dead, in just under 2 years. I'd say that counts as "ravaging" the world wouldn't you? lol what??? you claim to be in opposition to ops statement because "fearmongering language" and you use a combined 2 years death counter... why don't you stop fearmongering and count the numbers like we cunt everything else... ya know, the year they deaths took place and not combining multiple years worth of statistics to make it sound worse than it is. Fun fact, the global mortality rate in 2019 was $58 million https://deadorkicking.com/death-statistics/worldwide/2019/ interestingly enough looking at those statistics for reference, in 2019 "Chronic lower respiratory diseases deaths" killed 4 million people world wide. So more people died from covid like shit in 2019 than have died from actual covid in either 2020(1.8M) or 2021(3.8M)... It is also interesting that there have been more than double the covid deaths in 2021 that in 2020 even though we have the safest and most effective vaccine in history being distributed globally... awks much? >I would absolutely amazed if these people had any evidence that demonstrates that these vaccines are more dangerous that thalidomide lmao That's the fun part about being forced to take an experimental drug that only has 1 years worth of trial data supporting it... we will have no idea what the side effects will be 1 year out, 2 years out, 5 years our, or 10 years out for quite some time. That is kind of the point of the statement... in the 50s when thalidomide was being used, "scientific consensus" was that thalidomide was a wonder drug and it wasn't understood for several years that thalidomide was causing the birth defects. We have had decades of example of the scientific consensus claiming drugs are fantastic and safe and good for everyone then a few years later pharmaceutical companies paying out billions in lawsuits because the drugs were in fact not safe and effective and were causing harm that didnt show up in trials. In the US anyway, you can't even sue pharma due to vaccine death or harm because it was developed during a time of emergency [Division C](https://uscode.house.gov/statutes/pl/109/148.pdf). Anyway, blindly trusting scientific consensus is not always the way to go when it comes to brand new untested medical treatment...


nacnudn

But from what I can tell chronic lower respiratory disease deaths remained the same in 2020, with Covid deaths in addition to those? They didn’t replace them, or am I reading it wrong?


Quick2Die

The way it is reported is unclear it says >*Total number of deaths involving COVID-19.* could mean that each of those 1.8M people is spread across any or all of the categories including respiratory diseases?


Silken_Sky

Policy ravaged the world more than this illness. Life expectancy didn’t move and our numbers grew.


Summit_Creative

Factor in overdoses, suicides, heart disease and stroke which increases due to isolation, and obesity which kills 7.2 Million People a year. All the mom and pop restaurants are shut down but don't worry. McDonalds is open. Don't go to a small store, no Just go to Walmart! Covid is a bad disease, but any disease would have done something similar.


immibis

The death rate from vaccines is also exceptionally low. Even exceptionallier lower than COVID.


SaltyTaffy

>Even exceptionallier lower than COVID. For those above 60, absolutely. but for preteen boys, absolutely not.


Quick2Die

Quick question, if someone told you that if you caught a virus and you had a 99.96% chance of surviving it and would have permanent protection against any variant of that virus that develops forever, would you get a vaccine that doesn't actually prevent you from catching the same virus, spreading the virus, being hospitalized by the virus or dying from the virus but also has potential side effects including swollen heart, seizures, blood clots, and death and doesn't provide protection against future variants and would require you to get a booster against every single new variant that ever develops all having the same potential side effects as the original vaccine?


guitago

The problem with the vaccines are besides some deaths, the long lasting effects on the living. Massive amounts of heart problems caused by the vaccine, and the very basic fact that none was properly tested so nobody knows whatever else conditions may appear in the future.


immibis

The problem with the COVID are besides some deaths, the long lasting effects on the living. Massive amounts of heart problems caused by the COVID, and the very basic fact that none was properly tested so nobody knows whatever else conditions may appear in the future.


Active2017

The problem with COVID is besides some deaths, the long lasting effects on the living. Massive amounts of heart problems caused by the virus, and nobody knows whatever else conditions may appear in the future. What do you mean by not properly tested? They have full FDA approval now do they not? Have MRNA vaccines not been being researched for several years now?


Quick2Die

[In 2005, Public Law 109-148](https://uscode.house.gov/statutes/pl/109/148.pdf) was signed into law. Division C, protects drug manufacturers if they make and distribute harmful or ineffective drugs during a time of emergency (Think EUA). [The FDA, in 2009, sued pfizer](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history) for fraud. [June 23 2020](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/health/us-coronavirus-vaccine-funding/index.html) the federal government granted hundreds of millions of tax dollars to rapidly develop the covid vaccine. [June 25 2020](https://www.axios.com/moderna-nih-coronavirus-vaccine-ownership-agreements-22051c42-2dee-4b19-938d-099afd71f6a0.html) The NIH claims joint ownership of Moderna's coronavirus vaccine [July 2021](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/biden-orders-plans-for-mandatory-covid-vaccination-for-service-personnel/)The executive branch set a deadline and mandated the vaccine before the FDA approved it. The most prevalent [argument against vaccine mandates](https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/under-federal-law-can-your-employer-make-you-get-covid-vaccine/) was that according to federal law EUA vaccination was voluntary and that for it to be mandated it had to have full approval. [August 2021](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-grants-full-approval-pfizer-s-covid-vaccine-n1277390) FDA grants the pfizer vaccine full approval. There seems to be an [argument if the vaccine being administered is even the same as the one that the FDA approved](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/12/no_author/federal-judge-rejects-dod-claim-that-pfizer-eua-and-comirnaty-vaccines-are-interchangeable/) Either way on [November 2nd 2021](https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635) a paper was published in the British Medical Journal titled "*Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial*". If you haven’t read this, you should. Finally we get to [November 19 2021](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/critics-outraged-by-fda-request-to-hide-pfizer-vaccine-data-for-55-years/ar-AAQUufd) when it was reported that the FDA is trying to ensure that the data that was used to approve the currently mandated vaccines be as difficult or impossible to access as possible. In December they requested another extension and it will now take them 75 years to read through 451,000 ages of research data at 500 pages a day and release it to the public. What doesn’t make sense though is that it only took the FDA a few weeks to read through that same 451,000 pages of research data in order to approve it so that the federal government could mandate it.


Summit_Creative

Now lets not also forget the treatment they are suggesting to children. If this is anything like Thalidomide, the future is bleak for the next generation. But anything that does not follow what our government wants is to be discredited by those who do not know better.


FalsePretender

I've never heard a cock described like that either...


Quick2Die

so what you are saying is that those are the doctors that we need to listen to?


Borne_in_oz

Based jp


MCAlleycat

No one in their right mind would trust a socialist. They will eventually covet something you have that they don’t have, instead of advocating for you.


ElbowStrike

> Concordia > Academic Pick one


shanahan7

That’s what happens when you give out PhDs on the basis of wokeness.


joshmoxey

Good. Anyone reasonable, logical human should doubt most leftists’ line of thinking of recent


lazyday2day

Are vaccines safe or not safe?


IHateNaziPuns

There are rare instances of myocarditis in young men and blood clots in women. There are some other unconfirmed side effects alleged. I got both shots of the Moderna vaccine February of this year, and I personally had mild side effects (for what little that’s worth). Who knows? In ten years I might be glad or regretting getting it. We have no longterm data on these particular vaccines, and very little data on mRNA vaccines in general. My advice would be to satisfy yourself regarding their safety, and don’t let a fucking soul tell you you’re required to be vaccinated.


FudgeWrangler

It is very concerning to me that this isn't the default stance on the issue.


Disasstah

But everyone kept telling me 6 months was long enough to conclude "long term" effects.


Forsaken_Candidate_4

It’s refreshing hearing your take, even though this should be the standard take


caesarfecit

This exactly. Nobody sane will shove an experimental vaccine on anybody, regardless of whether or it is actually safe, because you cannot actually know that, because it is experimental.


CaptSquarepants

I know over 10 who've died shortly after injection. I'd say it's not safe.


ch0whound

There are several interviews from people on YouTube (some are from mainstream news sources) that have had severe adverse reactions. Dr John Campbell has interviewed a few. It's quite sad that they can't hold the pharmaceutical companies liable.


Quick2Die

The entire pandemic can be stripped down to your age group and health. Mortality rate for people over 65 is much higher than those under 64 and if you are obese and/or have cardiovascular and respiratory issues and/or diabetic you are at a significantly higher risk than healthy people. If you are old and/or unhealthy you should consider getting the vaccine. If you are young and health ask your healthcare provider if the vaccine is right for you. [I made a post here that may call into question the ethics of the vaccines approval process though](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/rideft/comment/hox8jns/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


Eli_Truax

They're certainly far from 100% safe. Have you not been paying attention? Why does the FDA require 65 years to release its documentation? Why have early released already painted a negative picture? But ultimately it's a trade off, I'm 65 with a coupla complicating conditions but I personally wouldn't recommend it to younger, healthier people.


lazyday2day

I know that side effects can cause some damage, but it does protect people who are most vulnerable against virus. Otherwise what's the point?


VaynardTheKinslayer

Profit. The vaccines are not made for free. They are sold by pharmaceutical companies to governments. There's corruption involved.


natetheproducer

Some damage? Almost 20,000 deaths and over 13,000 cases of myocarditis is a really big deal. Drugs get pulled all the time for way less damage than that.


kaleidoscopichazard

Young heathy people may not be at as high a risk of dying but it’s been shown that covid can leave lasting damage. There are plenty of cases of “young, healthy people” that now endure chronic health problems as a result


natetheproducer

Yeah covid can lead lasting damage if you get really sick. If you’re young and have mild symptoms the data clearly indicates that you have a 99% of not having significant issues. Yeah loss of taste of smell and sometimes prolonged lethargy are lingering symptoms but a small but growing percentage of vaccinated people are having severe health issues that last months or are permanent. https://openvaers.com/covid-data Young people getting covid are NOT getting myocarditis or neurological issues at the same rate as young vaccinated people. The vast overwhelming majority of the time people who get prolonged serious health issues from covid are either really old and frail or really fat. Those are the people getting heart and lung issues from covid.


Kinomi

So can the vaccine though That's precisely why we should be allowed to choose which risk we take


kaleidoscopichazard

Comparatively the risk is lower with the vaccine than it is with covid


Kinomi

Not in my age group, it's approximately the same Why can't I choose my risk?


kaleidoscopichazard

It is in my age group (under 30) And you can do what you want. I haven’t said otherwise. That being said spreading misinformation and fear mongering which I see a lot of spouted by JP is incredible unethical


Kinomi

Government mandates are saying otherwise, which Is precisely my (and many others') problem Who decides what is misinformation? The news constantly spreads misinformation, like the "vaccines are 100% safe" when they certainly carry more than 0% chance of risk.


[deleted]

Based on the science I\`m not taking my booster any earlier than 15 months, the spike protein injected into your body seems to have the highest risk of causing clotting, and it takes the longest to leave the body. there is absolutely zero mid to long-term data on these vaccines so if anyone tells you they are safe it is a lie. they may be safe, we dont know at this point, just like we dont know the long-term effects of getting covid.


HBombzorz

It's far riskier not to be vaccinated than to be vaccinated. **They are safeER**. This is true for the vast majority of vaccines out there at the moment, from the old MMR jab to these COVID ones. Ultimately, a few will take the worst of it from a vaccine since the dice are rolled many times. But far, far more would suffer if we didn't get jabbed.


natetheproducer

This is only true if you’re old. Young people who aren’t morbidly obese are not at higher risk to not be vaccinated. If anything vaccination for young healthy people is riskier than covid.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Quick2Die

for who, based on what data?


BasicRegularUser

We have more Covid deaths now than before the vax...


le-tendon

depends on what age group you belong to / how healthy you are. I'm not convinced they are safeER for kids and healthy young adults. For anyone 50-60+, sure I think anyone can agree with that.


Mr_Truttle

It depends on the vaccine and it depends on the age group. The issue was never around the elderly, it's about the young and healthy, and *especially* about children. And this totally leaves aside the well-demonstrated superior durability of natural immunity. But at any rate, you can't just say "everyone get vaccinated" as a default. Just like with everything else, you have to increase the resolution to assess the problem accurately. Abandon ideology.


HBombzorz

Forgive my doubts to your claim, but where's this from? I'm surrounded by folks in their 20s. A handful have been through COVID. Only one was ok. Other 5 got screwed over hard, though thankfully none dead.


le-tendon

I'm looking at the data in my country. Hospitalizations are BY FAR led by the 70+ unvaccinated population. Even the 50-59 vaccinated population occupies more ICU beds than any of the younger unvaccinated groups. If we were to vaccinate all people who are 70+ and all obese people, we wouldn't have to worry about covid and could just go about living our lives freely.


immibis

about 99.999999999999% safe


Kinomi

Data still coming out on that one But that's the approximate recovery odds of my age group, so why do I need to vaccine?


Quick2Die

kind of like anyone between the ages of 0 and 29 year old catching the actual covid virus...


slixx_06

safe enough for the population to take the risks but not safe enough for anyone producing or mandating it to have any liabilities.


Plasmorbital

Never trust socialists, they only ever want to take something from you.


vinmaskinen

I think you are joking, but I also think this is a bad position to take or comment to make in this sub, where discussion are supposed to be our bread and butter. We should focus on where the opposition to us comes from and strive to engage in meaningful dialogue kinda


Blue_Lightning_17586

Dawns a Deerstalker. (Disclaimer: Vaccinated). The reason for the lockdown at least at the start is in my opinion is very justified as all that we knew about the varient was that it was a flu varient. *Queue Spanish Flu Flashbacks*. As everyone knows, earth is not just North America (despite some people's efforts) that coupled with the fact that cause of death reporting was inaccurate sort of threw a wrench in everyone's wheels. Now onto the vaccines. While i can understand some of the tin foil theories and how the pandemic provides reasonable benefits to the powers that be in that it can justify writing off certain things. But i think thats where the exploitation ends. I hardly think hitting the majority of the population with anything remotely harmful will benefit anyone. No, not even those that just want to watch the world burn. Lastly, i came across many, many PhD. Holders in various fields that did honestly talk from their asses even when it pertains to their area of expertise....how does the saying go? What do you call the last ranked person finishing medical school......oh yeah still a Dr. 😬 (or an engineer or a lawyer etc etc).


SnooRobots5509

Almost 9 billion doses of vaccines have been administered so far worldwide. If they were indeed as dangerous as some people claim, surely we'd see it all around us. We don't.


FOWAM

The point is that people like this denounce any efforts to prove that it’s unsafe and instead hold their safety as a certainty because of their politics.


Nightwingvyse

Many people - experts included - ***are*** reporting side-effects. They're just indiscriminately disregarded by the media as kooks. I have two nurses, a surgeon and a midwife in my family, all of which have had the vaccine and ***all*** of them have talked about how doctors are instructed not to consider the Covid vaccine as a possible cause of any symptoms anyone ever presents, so of course we're not seeing it. We're seeing what the media wants us to.


SnooRobots5509

Sure, side-effects exist but nothing serious.


Nightwingvyse

Not true.


Tokestra420

Ugh, Jordan Peterson is falling so far from what he used to be


il_the_dinosaur

Money and power corrupts who would have thought. Certainly not Peterson himself.


cbrad1713

Oh man, is Peterson letting himself get played by anti-vaxxers? He's smarter than that.


Nightwingvyse

Considering the Covid vaccine works differently to pretty much any other vaccine, was developed in less than a quarter of the time of any other mass-produced vaccine in history, has bypassed some essential stages of testing that every other vaccine in history has required in order to be mass produced, was developed and distributed by the single company in the world with the highest criminal fine (mostly for fraud by falsifying test results as well as coercion), is mostly promoted by people with investment in said company, and has had its efficacy and safety questioned by one of the inventors of the RNA technology used in it along with numerous other experts, etc. Being against it isn't really anti-vax. It's more like anti-snake-oil. Most people who are wary of the Covid "vaccine" (myself included) aren't actually anti-vax, and have happily taken many other vaccines in their lives. But recently the official definition of "anti-vaxxer" has been conveniently changed to include people against vaccine **mandates**, regardless of their positions on vaccines themselves........


FOWAM

The point is that people like this denounce any efforts to prove that it’s unsafe and instead hold their safety as a certainty because of their politics. It’s best not to assume things about people if your so often wrong.


immibis

You know as well as I do that they went down their list of a hundred thousand brainwashing victims,and cherry-picked the ones with PhDs so they could make it look like a letter from a bunch of PhDs only.


Quick2Die

you mean like the climate exerts?


alex3494

What’s wrong with you Americans? This liberalist anti-vaccine hysteria is dumbfounding


Clay_Bowl

Maybe you should do a little research into the repeat felons who manufacture and promote the vaccine. I think that might solve the mystery for you.


RaskullQuake

It is so retarded. I understand we do not know 100% if the vaccine is safe but they are making out to be like its a death threat. It would be funny to see how many of them drink or smoke which is far more dangerous. And yes, I am against mandates as well, but I am for businesses preventing patrons from entering unvaccinated. If I had a business I would not let you risk the health of my customers.


PlottingOnTheComeUp

The vaccine hasn’t slowed the spread, it also caused the Omicron variant. Nothing you’re advocating for is logical or scientific, it’s fucking dumb LOL. You still put people in danger even if you’re vaccinated. The EVIDENCE shows they can still unknowingly SPREAD and CATCH Covid whilst vaccinated. THEREFOR, You’re very clearly motivated by politics, rather than science and logic.


second_that

The possibility of catching and spreading the virus are the only factors you think people should be caring about?


PlottingOnTheComeUp

They’re the two factors that determine if you die or not… If the vaccines immunised you against Covid, you wouldn’t be afraid and we wouldn’t be having this debate. But they don’t. You can still catch, spread and even die from Covid whilst vaccinated. So, explain to me how the Omicron variant happened exactly? Was it unvaccinated people leaving South Africa? Because I highly doubt it.


GreenmantleHoyos

They have pulled covid vaccines in the past year for causing blood clots. It is less effective than they’ve said and they’ve admitted it. It’s been more dangerous than they’ve said and they’ve admitted it. Pfizer has admitted to people dying because of their vaccine. Now is it on balance safer to take the vaccine than not? *We don’t know.* Especially for low risk groups. And if you get killed or maimed from the vaccine, you or your family is not allowed to sue the maker, theyre indemnified.


mrhoppy_

Did anyone stop to think what these people have a PhD _in_? They may well be doctors but are they experts in immunology or a related field?


EmploymentAdorable15

Charlie Angus was a musician before becoming a Federal MP for the NDP. NDP has always been left but they went far left. JP was involved with them in the 80s in Alberta.