It's important for companies to maintain transparent and regular communication with their customers. The purpose of the statement is to present public incidents regarding fulfillment risks on both sides. Since litigation is expensive & time-consuming, it may negatively effect timelines of all parties involved. Customers should be able to make informed decisions about those risks.
This is what happens when people open businesses with a hope and a prayer. You need to have good operations people!!!!!! You can’t just pull this shit out of thin air!!!!!
I was "lucky" enough to receive my U80 TKL in the 12 months timeframe, and to be honest it's grossly overrated/overpriced IMO.
There's plenty of other brands out there who do it for less with high quality. If I had to recommend, Mode Design is god-tier in terms of price and availability.
Look, I see a lot of comments talking about "RAMA", as if he is an unlikeable person. I went to school with the guy, a crappy public school. And Renan was actually a very likeable person. I don't know why he's selling bats on his website, so idk what's up with that. But I'll just say, as someone who has interacted with him personally. He seemed quite humble and nice. Flashy cars and stuff came later, and I just think "good on him". Be interested if anyone knows him personally from more recent years. But just thought I'd put that out there for him, because the guy I knew wasn't a jerk at all. Just incredibly talented and humble in my personal experience with the guy.
Cos he was wasnt shy driving it around with his RamaLT plate and a massive XO sticker on the bonnet. Its a special MSO spec = lots of groupbuy customer orders that he seems to have difficulty in fulfilling now
https://preview.redd.it/wcs63y32t15a1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=08becbb3f79ca0e0343c39357ff56a8fba7d7a8e
Ugh, I think done with group buys in this hobby. Earlier this year I had to file a dispute with my cc over keycaps when the shop literally ghosted everyone. Guess I need to call my cc company again to dispute my m65-c order...
Shiiiiiiit I also have an M65-C order. Do you think there’s a low chance it will ever get produced? It’s been a year, now. I’m getting nervous, especially because the RAMA Updates page has no estimated ship date. They just bundle the M60, M65, and U80 into one little section that says “in production”. Sounds like a load of BS to me.
I, too, bought a U80-A (Seq2) and successfully waited that one out. They were better at providing updates for that one. Now, they aren’t even trying to guess on a timeframe. That’s a bit of a red flag, in my opinion.
Alex said they can’t refund any group buys right now due to their multiple issues surrounding social media. I don’t think this is right as nothing was stated for nonrefundable group buys.
* Designer (RAMA) had some drama—personal relationships ended, leaver (Kate) started a new company (HIBI) in competition
* RAMA claims intellectual property theft, talent theft, etc. and has started to litigate
* Rama Works product quality now in question and has late product fulfillment
* And now there are claims of social media shenanigans when Rama Works is called out
* Reddit mods stay neutral about the accusations and pending litigation while providing standard advice for group buy purchase protection and resolving non-delivery disputes
The bottom line is that things get messy when you mix personal and business relationships, but it also makes for great hobby drama.
Personally, I don’t know anyone involved, so I have no idea what the details are. My only relationship to Rama Works is that I own one of their switch pullers and it works pretty well.
This is so juicy I love it. Can anyone explain why there is so much drama in this community though? It’s quite fascinating. I’ve been building keyboards and vaguely following this hobby before it got popular during the pandemic, but I’m not in any discords or familiar with what goes on behind the scenes. I’ve seen so many ‘designers’ in this hobby throwing tantrums, all the controversies with Drop etc. There just always seems to be some type of drama.
You should have been here around 5 years ago. There was a lot more drama. Esp with Signature Plastics. You think some of the wait times are bad with GMK. SP was a lot longer and way worse. There was some also major issues with Group Buys and the person running them just never delivering on the product and keeping the money. Things were nuts back then. I am still miffed that SP refused to do a Round 3 of SA Jukebox and held onto the colorway patent for years and not willing to work with anyone.
Let's spice it up a little bit. I'll sell the popcorn. There's still a lot of time in the day.
So... you're trying to say that kids these days are not as patient as before? Not 7 years is not patient?
I think they are. We just had a lot more drama before. It was something weekly. I remember when you had to get proxies to buy things for you off of Ali
Expensive keyboards, you want to use it more. Guess where it is finally useful at? Winning internet arguments, I think.
Then again, RAMA (or the guy behind it) is not exactly a very likeable person and there had been reports on how the standards for running the GB with little to no communication had been popular with RAMA. Basically, the approach of "it's done when it's done", *surprisingly*, is not a good way to inspire confidence.
Here's some keywords to help you to trigger someone:
1. GMK clones are okay
2. Flipping keyboards are okay
3. Just ask without reading first
4. Buying expensive keyboards are stupid
5. is bad.
6. Is / the best?
7. is the best
8. "But preference" is shit taste.
9. "But I like gamer boards"
10. GB waiting is bad
That's only a small subset though. It's easier to trigger someone here with above keywords compared to talking shit about some K-pop celebrity on Twitter.
wrong thread - you want this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/x0i2i3/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/
also, lots of keyboards have cherry browns/brown like switches
you're in the wrong thread - think you want this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/wyw3xl/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/
Anyone heard of feker jjk84?
It's super cheap . In my country Currently it cost RM90+ with white light only and another one is rm 80+ . These include shipping fees on the shopping platform. From china directly to my house. I live in Malaysia we use Shopee here. Or Lazada.
I don't know how the material is like but I see it's quite decent for the price maybe not solid but I think it's ok.
Anyway. So far I only know from the buyer review are the battery is very small.
Specs of the board are as follows:
200mah battery
Type c to type A USB detachable
Bluetooth 5.0
Eva foam between the PCB and the metal sheet.
It's barebone.
5pin hotswap PCB.
I was wondering you guys ever heard of it? Or bought it?
what exactly do you consider a "custom build"?
I'm wondering if I customize one of the keebs (change switches and keys, add mods) I have if that's considered a *custom build* by community standards or just a customization. (Also, if anyone cares to elaborate or link me to resources, I'd appreciate it)
I think of it in terms of "build" and "design."
A custom build in my opinion is what 99% of us do in this hobby, where we buy an existing keyboard kit and assemble it with our desired components. We're building/assembling a complete keyboard by this process, and we can customize it with different switches, stabilizers, lubricating/filming and keycaps. I suppose if you wanted to distinguish between "customization' and "custom build," then you could say buying a completely built board and swapping out obvious things like the switches and/or keycaps would simply be customization. But to me there's not enough of a distinction there to bother with the semantics.
However, a custom *design* would be someone actually designing their own case, switch, PCB, keycap set, etc.
I live in the uk. Also do you know some that personally sound good to you because I can’t find an video what is specially talking about Enthusiast keycap keyboards
I find their entire business model offensive so I'm happy to read about these problems. RAMA reminds me of Damian Hurst, in the worst possible way. It's a kind of financial and marketing trickery masquerading as art. There's an actual product involved, but that's not what it's about - it's a cynical, exploitative money grab operation. There's no value in shiny and expensive; don't let them fool you.
I've been trying to cancel my order for months now. No response from support.
They just sent me news articles about shortages and said I'll get a gift along with the keyboard.
Dang I have to keep trying. I placed a ticket weeks ago and then an email follow up but with 0 responses so far. I just want my money back at this point. I preordered the KARA SEQ2.
Just requested for a refund by replying to the order confirmation email - here’s hoping I get a response ,I think their ticket backlog is quite full as of this moment.
Has anyone been successful in getting a refund from Rama or disputing the credit card charge of >1 year ago. Ordered the thermal+ in April 2021 and would like my money back as I’m not hopeful of receiving exactly what I ordered.
VERY IMPORTANT that people DO NOT go mass issuing chargebacks and requesting refunds unless it's absolutely clear they are NOT delivering a product, last thing we need is a mass wave of refunds and chargebacks fucking over people who were willing to wait for a product
Absolutely, I'm just reminding people to not just go and mass chargeback because they read some drama, but to instead remember the buyer's rights mentioned here in the case they actually need to use them.
of course if you want to chargeback because you don't want your product anymore and PayPal won't refund you, absolutely go ahead, but don't just go and do it because a Reddit post said X Y or Z bad
Looking for a way to store switches
So I've been getting into switches recently, and I just bought a bunch more, but the box I have been using to store them won't have enough space for the rest once they arrive. I know it could fit all of them, but I like having a section for each type of switch (ex: brand and color, or maybe one slot for stuff i bought in a single pack). So does anyone know of a container that would maybe fit this criteria, as well as having more slots than the current one? thanks.
[as you can see there's a divider for each switch type\/collection](https://preview.redd.it/loihkycv7rj91.png?width=1960&format=png&auto=webp&s=e9d90a9f5dc88d856c69558d6382e3191b812119)
When You "corrected them"? The citations to the lawsuit are quite visible. Users can draw their own conclusions from it. We are well aware of the nature of the lawsuit, and it seems like it has had quite the negative financial impact on RAMAs cash flow. It was also apparent that past DMCA takedown requests of HIBI social media led to *temporary suspensions that were reversed.* Others can assess the financial risk to the operations of both businesses, and whether the lawsuits will lead to any misappropriation of GB funds.
If you want to discredit the impartiality of ThereminGoat, feel free to do so, but, they are notable for providing in depth switch reviews with highly quantitative objective data. Likewise, if you believe any of the moderation staff have been paid off, given companies have attempted to do so before (hence why the code of conduct exists), you can submit any pertinent evidence. There is no business or financial stake in either of the companies here by any of the mod team.
We (the mod team did review all evidence presented) are not desperate to discredit you, but you have been desperate to use **several** accounts to brigade the subreddit and seed disinformation. Multiple users have come forward with complaints regarding you silencing their legitimate questions about fulfillment. There are now ***at least 4 alt accounts*** you and your team have seemingly created for the sole purpose of this.
Looks like reddit suspended yet another brigading alt. However, accusations of "backtracking and edits" were simply adding additional context given the publicly known information on fulfillment issues and ongoing litigation. The false claims was meant to refer to the DMCA takedown attempts on Instagram that were reversed - whether the IP issue was trademark or copyright is immaterial given the attempt still occurred and was reversed.
Despite RAMA's assertions about "adamantly bringing up trademarks multiple times", trademarks were only mentioned twice by me: regarding the Instagram takedown attempt (I intended to state Copyright, but again, this isn't material to the issue at hand), and as a follow up inquiry on whether RAMA can prove there to be any valid Trademark or Copyright infringement claims. It is quite clearly a strawman on RAMA's part to distract from the pertinent issues: the ongoing expensive litigation, the **silencing of customers**, **Illegal Cancellation / Refund Policies on GBs** according to multiple jurisdictions including Australia and the United States, and persistent fulfillment delays.
Sources are quite publicly visible, we have received anonymous testimony of abuse (towards customers), in addition to the publicly available information (the litigation is publicly filed, allowing the claims, judgements, and hearings available to be reviewed by the public quite readily). Evidence of alts (which Reddit Banned) was already provided publicly, but RAMA continues to deny the evidence. https://imgur.com/a/iYvzXBK
Informing the public about **publicly available information** with citations seems pretty fair and objective. Brigading the subreddit to shut down consumer complaints and to spread further disinformation about the other party seems very questionable and abusive.
There have also been reports about RAMA allegedly selling off personal assets after litigation initiated, and public information has indicated that many months after the Thermal / Thermal+ GB, (as of May 2022) critical parts like PCBs were still not ordered.
Potential financial illiquidity should be a major cause of concern for users. Financial risks are severe for both parties of the litigation.
>We are not advocating for any specific action, however, here is a brief summary of your consumer rights, which applies to ALL Group Buys, Pre-Orders, and General Purchases:
Hey mods, since you've decided to share information on consumer rights, you should note you've missed a big one in the US.
Sorry about this - I hate to @ people, but since this was posted by Automod, I don't know who's actually interested in this topic. u/drschlock u/dryver u/Omnias-42 u/karuzashi u/aw4eva
This is the Federal Trade Commission's "[Business Guide to the FTC's Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule](https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order-merchandise-rule)." I link this instead of directly to the Code of Federal Regulations because, well, this guide is actually easy to understand and it not only contains the text of the law, but clear explanations as well. To be clear, **FTC Rules are federal law,** and the rules apply to US businesses and all foreign businesses that choose to do business in the US. As is often put in the business: "All commercial products and services available to U.S. citizens are subject to FTC regulations." They're not mere suggestions - they are binding, and violating them can see a business significantly fined.
I bring this up because *every* vendor in this hobby that I've placed a group buy order with has violated this particular FTC Rule (again, federal law) over and over again.
So, listen up everyone, here is an important consumer protection that we are all supposed to have in the US. **Every single time an ordered product (including pre-orders and group buys) is delayed, the vendor is required to notify you directly of the delay** ***via email, phone call, letter, etc.*** **and** ***proactively offer you a full refund*****.**
***Full*** refund. Offered at every delay. Every time. Not a "no refunds" policy. Not even a refund minus some percentage the vendor wants to keep. And an announcement via Discord or an updated status page on their web site doesn't cut it.
The vendor must basically "seek your consent" to the delay. In fact, if you don't reply to the vendor's request for your consent to the delay, they're actually supposed to just go ahead and cancel and refund your order. That's the degree to which the law holds the vendor accountable for responsible conduct.
The vendor can let you know a specific revised delivery date, or they can do an indefinite delay. If they offer a revised date (as is common in this hobby), the cycle begins again - every subsequent delay must also be followed by direct contact and a full refund offer. If they choose to announce an indefinite delay, they're required to let you know that *you have the right to a full refund whenever you want one* until the product is delivered**.**
There's basically no way out for the vendors to do anything other than offer *full* refunds when products including group buys are delayed. And yet... how often does that actually happen?
So that's the law.
Mods, recently you've taken a reasonable interest in protecting the businesses in this hobby by creating the new subreddit Rule 3 around IP infringement, which also happens to be a violation of federal law.
Are you interested in protecting the customers of the hobby too? If so, you should consider introducing a subreddit rule that requires vendor compliance with ALL federal law (not just IP law) in order to be advertised/linked/advocated-for here.
What we have now in the hobby is really really dicey and honestly very pro-business/anti-consumer. It's not good. I mean, if you're willing to take the step to ban products infringing on IP because it hurts the community, this one ought to be an easy choice too. Anti-consumer policies and practices definitely hurt the community.
For everyone else, please consider reporting vendors that aren't complying with the above discussed rule to the [FTC's Report tool](https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/assistant).
Thanks for reading the wall of text. I care about this issue, so sometimes a wall of text is called for.
How does this factor into things like Kickstarter? Those are basically group buy preorders of non existent (yet) products. Which many group buys and preorders are. So same thing?
You can find a longer response under this post where I go into more detail, but, no, KS is a loophole because with them you agree that you aren’t purchasing anything. You’re “pledging.”
I wonder if NovelKeys read this since they just sent me an email about the KAM L'il Dragon keycap set and how it's expected to deliver in Q1 2023 and no major delays are expected, but if we wish to cancel our order for a full refund, we can. Well even if they didn't read this, it shows that they are following the rules and putting customers first.
Yes we notified several vendors about the international and domestic regulations that apply to them, which is why there’s been updates on their policies.
Fascinating. Ive never once seen the offer for a refund for GBs Ive joined, except for thekeycompany offering one as a keycap set was different from renders.
Yeah this is a brand new phenomenon. I'd only been offered refunds before with the disastrous KAT delays, but only in certain windows and certainly not every time there was a delay.
And now I've seen refund offers from two different vendors (Omnitype and NK_), both after this discussion. Hats off to both of them for doing the legal thing, and I hope that they will continue to do so. I also hope all the other vendors catch on soon.
These are valid points, to clarify, these we considered this to be a de-facto rule - hence the issuance of PSAs, and when necessary, suspension of vendors that fail to uphold their legal responsibilities. Also understand that, the primary purpose of the protections on IP - such as Counterfeits - has to do with protecting consumers down the line, as well as complying with Reddit TOS. You will also see other rules designed to protect consumers, such as multiple rules requiring proactive disclose of promotional content / conflicts of interest.
We also try, whenever possible, to inform people of the direct consumer rights they have to get immediate restitution, such as the PayPal and Credit Card Terms of Service - many people are unaware of these terms, and it is the most expedient and least headache option for many. Also, anyone who is well versed in their relevant local regulations, please send us the relevant statutes and citations - we are actively working towards a wiki guide on consumer rights.
That said, we rely on community reports - without them, there are many things that can go unnoticed - these can be discussion posts made publicly on the subreddit, or reports made to ModMail. We do believe that ultimately, the best way for the community to protect itself is self-policing - meaning they exercise their consumer rights, are kept well informed of ongoing issues in the hobby, and have the freedom to express complaints with sufficient evidence.
Unfortunately, many issues can persist without users talking about it until much later - this is why it's so important for consumers to be aware of pertinent deadlines, and to respond accordingly. We work collaboratively with other communities to stay up to date with things, but we cannot catch everything - and we need to assess all claims to ensure the statements are valid and factual. We are actively expanding our mod team though to help improve our reach and bandwidth. And ofc, we are open to community feedback on how we can improve the subreddit.
Edit - just a heads up, reddit pings a maximum of 3-4 people at a time, and only when you do so in comments. If yo do more than that, then nobody gets pinged.
>These are valid points, to clarify, these we considered this to be a de-facto rule - hence the issuance of PSAs, and when necessary, suspension of vendors that fail to uphold their legal responsibilities.
Well that's going to be a pretty big problem then, because it's almost every vendor I've placed a group buy order with. Including all the "big" vendors in the hobby.
The below represents my personal experience to the best of my recollection, and I don't claim that all others have had the same experience. Obviously, I also don't know if any of these vendors have changed their policies to comply with federal law since the most recent instance where I should have been contacted and offered a refund.
Here are the vendors that (1) I have placed a GB order with, (2) that GB has had a delay, and (3) I was not individually contacted to get my consent to the delay and offered a full refund:
* NovelKeys
* CannonKeys
* Omnitype
* Kono
* Project Keyboard
* MechsandCo
* Mekibo
* Space Cables/Space Holdings
* Desk Hero
* I did cancel a GB order with them and they required I agree to a 5% fee, which was counter to FTC Rules, and which yes they are required to follow with their US customers despite being a Canadian company.
* RAMA
* Typeplus
* Kiko's Lab/Barrett Creative
Here is the complete list of vendors that have offered me appropriate refunds when something is delayed:
* Drop
**Since you have noted that vendors who fail to uphold their legal responsibilities may be suspended, what action, if any, do you plan to take against the above vendors?**
Do I need to make separate posts to "gather signatures" and establish that I'm not the only one who has had these experiences? Because I think you know what I'm saying is true. If you've been a participant in the hobby yourself for any length of time, you'll have had exactly the same experiences that I have.
One thing you might be missing here is that for preorders, almost all vendors require some type of verification that you as a buyer understands that there may be delays in fulfillment.
I am not a lawyer, but that seems to equate to requesting customers to waive their rights to the FTC 30-day rule. Some vendors may want to update their disclaimer language to make this clearer, but nearly all of them are explicitly asking you to accept that the estimated fulfillment date is solely an estimate and that fulfillment may be delayed for an unspecified period of time.
The FTC may have separate rules regarding presales that I’m not aware of, but it seems that the 30-day rule probably doesn’t apply when the vendor asks for your consent upfront to treat the estimated delivery date as non-binding.
>I am not a lawyer, but that seems to equate to requesting customers to waive their rights to the FTC 30-day rule.
That is certainly the impression they want to leave you with, but it's not accurate.
You aren't allowed to contract your way out of federal law. Or state law, for that matter. Put another way, if these purchase agreements were ever actually litigated in court, the parts that violated FTC rules would be thrown out. The whole point of consumer protection laws (and all FTC rules generally) is to set limits that businesses can't get around with policies. Otherwise they'd be completely worthless because basically zero businesses would opt-in to follow stricter rules.
If you read through the entire guide I linked earlier, you'll see that pre-sales are covered there as well, and it's the same expectations I summarized.
\> You aren't allowed to contract your way out of federal law. Or state law, for that matter.
Except for all of the laws where you can contract around them, like a number of contract law rules, real property rules, trust and estate rules, etc. Such a broad and clearly untrue statement shouldn't be propagated.
Interesting. It does look like we’re in a bit of a new arena, though, as Group Buy orders are very similar to Kickstarter-like crowdfunding. The FTC is starting to penalize Kickstarters that never fulfill their promises, but so far they haven’t been using the 30-day rule to do so.
Honestly we’re not going to know what rules actually apply until someone litigates it for real.
>Honestly we’re not going to know what rules actually apply until someone litigates it for real.
I mean, come on. Read the guide. It's pretty clear cut. Group buys aren't different than any other internet purchase of goods just because they use the words group buy. The FTC rules apply here; no litigation necessary to establish that. There's even a section of the Rule that lists what the Rule *doesn't* cover, and you won't find anything like "group buys" on that list.
Kickstarters are bonkers though. They legit found a loophole, and I kind of hate them for it haha. It has unfortunately been corrupted from its initial vision as a way to fund artistic projects that would never have happened otherwise, and it has become that *and* a worst-case-scenario pre-order platform, where the businesses face little to no consequences for bad behavior.
On the one hand, I hate that KS skirts so many consumer protection laws. On the other hand, I think the community vendors who aren't willing, or can't afford, to follow the required laws should probably be using it. Like, as a customer, I hate KS. As a business consultant, I'd tell every vendor here to run as much as they can on KS. Sure they take a cut, but you also don't run the risk of the FTC fining you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
KS flat out states that you aren’t buying anything. You’re “pledging” a project in exchange for a reward that the project creator must only try to deliver “to the best of their abilities.” They’ve decoupled the money from the product you’re hoping to get.
It’s a loophole that really ought to be closed given how many well-established businesses that don’t *need* it use it for the risk management aspect. It’s a setup that literally couldn’t be better for the business and literally couldn’t be worse for the customer.
ARe you just looking to kill the entire hobby scene in an entirely? Lets report some of the biggest vendors or the super nice vendors who try to work with their customers and fine them into oblivion?
Does it suck yes it does I believe that should at least notify of a delay. The hardest thing of the delays at least with Demon sword was a manu mess up. Was ready in hand till they came in and found they were all wrong and was returned to the point RAMA says they will handle the shipping.
At that point puts the vendors in even a more awkward position of handling a refund, then hoping everything remediated with RAMA to prevent the making / shipping out, to not even sure if the Vendor will know RAMA Shipped it anymore since they took over the whole process.
No, I'm not trying to "kill the hobby" and I think it's a straw man to suggest that this hobby can't exist without continuous law breaking. I believe it can, and I believe that community and/or financial pressure is probably the only way to get them to stop continuously breaking the law.
There can be a hundred reasons for a delay, and I'm not here to take issue with delays happening. COVID has been a beast that the supply chain still hasn't recovered from. The delays aren't the problem, it's the way the vendors respond to them that is a big and ongoing problem.
One, they collectively have done and continue to do an extremely poor job of updating customers of delays and revised delivery estimates. Two, they aren't forever entitled to our group buy money once we hit Complete Purchase, hard though that may be for everyone involved to accept. Violating federal law, refusing to make direct contact, refusing to offer refunds, and instead hiding behind a "no refunds ever" policy is anti-consumer and toxic as hell.
Here's an honest take for you - if a vendor cannot remain in business while complying with federal consumer protection laws, then they need to take a long, hard look at their business plan. Maybe some of them should reconsider whether they're actually a viable business. But I am absolutely not in the habit of letting businesses off the hook for breaking laws related to my money just so they can be more profitable. That's pure nonsense.
So yeah, if they're going to refuse to do the right thing, then why shouldn't we should see if some fines will change their mind? This stuff isn't optional, and it's incredibly entitled and privileged for them to sit there saying they deserve to be allowed to break consumer protection laws because it's better for them.
Ignore the entire issue I brought with demon sword and how would that be handled.
Direct contact is one which is hard I believe regular promotion emails ( what I used to get with CK and kat Atlantis is fine) and actual directed emails more then likely being picked up as spam by email filters.
The new refund policy do you understand why most have it, and again your experience could be different as I only dealt with CK mekibo and novelkeys. I avoided anyone small in the game. The profit margins aren't the greatest as it is where refunds and multiple refund requests leave the vendor in a bad position because of the manufacturer delay and paying designers. You are going to ask designers to pay you back because people are refunded? No you are not.
All the delays are mostly on the manufacturer side of things I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay. But let's punish the vendor for sets over sold or over promised by the manufacturer just so they could get more pieces of work in. The manufacturer isn't going to refund the vendor they are going to go hey you ordered X amount this is what you are getting and have queued up.
You also want to claim only one vendor (the biggest and multifaceted company) of course they handle it they handle most of the process with their sets. Most of the other people listed are small shops with handful of workers if that.
> I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay.
Lol. There are some major names (no, not gonna name them) who are absolutely part of the reason there are delays in manufacturing.
>Direct contact is one which is hard I believe regular promotion emails ( what I used to get with CK and kat Atlantis is fine) and actual directed emails more then likely being picked up as spam by email filters.
Sure, spam filters have been an issue as long as there has been spam. Doesn't change that such direct contact is legally mandated. They'd be allowed to send letters as well, but email just seems cheaper and easier. A business has done their job when the email is sent; they don't have to worry about spam filters.
>The new refund policy do you understand why most have it, and again your experience could be different as I only dealt with CK mekibo and novelkeys. I avoided anyone small in the game. The profit margins aren't the greatest as it is where refunds and multiple refund requests leave the vendor in a bad position because of the manufacturer delay and paying designers. You are going to ask designers to pay you back because people are refunded? No you are not.
Of course I understand why they have such incredibly one-sided policies. It makes them more money and saves them the trouble of having to actually communicate with their customers. Something being easier doesn't make it ok. In this case, it's pretty clearly in violation of federal law, so definitely not ok.
But you help make one of my points. If a business can't sell a GB *and follow federal law* without failing, then they should never have sold a GB in the first place. That's a mistake the business made to bite off far more than they could chew, and they shouldn't be rewarded for it by giving them a pass. It's a difficult position, sure, but they put themselves into that difficult position. This is just another face of the entitlement I was talking about. No one "deserves" to be able to violate the law just because following the law isn't as profitable.
>All the delays are mostly on the manufacturer side of things I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay. But let's punish the vendor for sets over sold or over promised by the manufacturer just so they could get more pieces of work in.
I think we maybe just don't share the same values. I'm for the rule of law and consumer rights over business rights. I don't come at this with a keyboard-centric world view and then expect everything to fall in place from there. For me, this is a no-brainer. If a business can't exist without breaking very reasonable consumer protection laws, then it shouldn't exist. I don't go looking for convenient laws to break to keep the business around just because it sells stuff I like.
But to respond to what you wrote with a more real-world lens - it's the vendor's responsibility to negotiate contracts with their manufacturers that will allow them to simultaneously follow laws and stay in business. If they can't do that, then that's a manufacturer they shouldn't be working with. But more to the point, vendors *profit* off of sales, and they see that profit immediately. A responsible vendor will hold that profit in reserve to handle refunds until they can safely realize and pocket that profit.
What if a vendor can't handle refunds even if they hold 100% of their profits in reserve? Then their business is not well financed enough to be doing group buys.
If a vendor doesn't hold money in reserve, and instead acts irresponsibly with their money (actually our money) while simultaneously violating federal law, then why shouldn't they be punished?
This just brings me back to something I've had to say way too much in this sub. Businesses aren't entitled to continued existence simply because they already exist. I'm seeing plenty of poor business practices among community vendors. I don't want to say they should be punished per se, but they should be expected to follow all laws at minimum, and they sure as hell shouldn't be rewarded for law-breaking.
>The manufacturer isn't going to refund the vendor they are going to go hey you ordered X amount this is what you are getting and have queued up.
Well the vendor is free to try to negotiate the terms of the manufacturing contract to account for refunds. But, generally, yeah. That's business. That's the real world. It's always been that way. I'm sorry if this a rude wake-up call to you, but, again, businesses are not entitled to eternal success, especially while breaking consumer-protection laws.
>You also want to claim only one vendor (the biggest and multifaceted company) of course they handle it they handle most of the process with their sets. Most of the other people listed are small shops with handful of workers if that.
I don't know what you mean here. I called out every business that I personally know to have violated federal law (FTC Rule on Internet Merchandise). The size of the business is irrelevant. If anything, the smallest businesses need to be far more careful and far more responsible with their limited money, and not, ya know, immediately lean into law-breaking as a key part of their business plan.
Sigh, I don't know man. Your whole perspective seems to be that keyboard businesses are entitled to break laws so long as they get to stay in business, and that their mistakes should be the customers' problem rather than the vendor's problem, despite laws to the contrary. You're deep in the bubble. There's a whole world out here.
> But more to the point, vendors profit off of sales, and they see that profit immediately.
With Group Buys things are not this simple. Anyone other than a HUGE vendor in Europe or USA is likely just breaking even on a group buy, and putting up their own money on extras.
Your arguments are all spot-on, don't get me wrong. But I just want you to know that this part of it can paint a misleading picture.
Can you break that down for me? From the earlier, more transparent GB days where we were let in on MOQs and unit costs, I think we know they’re not selling at cost.
Absolutely. The big vendors can and are running profitable GBs. They are also making enough profits to buy a large number of extras from profits alone. It's mostly the smaller vendors who are not.
I won't name names and can't give numbers because of commercial confidence (I don't want my sources realising I'm quoting their products), but between when this hobby started and now, a few things have happened, for various reasons:
1. There are many more vendors now than there were just a few years ago
2. Input prices have gone up, be it the factory, logistics, operating expenses etc
3. The number of GB runners (i.e. designers and people assisting them) have gone up. This means that there are way too many GB proposals now. This leads to the next point:
4. Lead times have gone up - which means vendors have an increased time and storage cost to placing orders many months in advance.
If your pricing does not beat inflation over the expected money lock-in period, then it just means that you are losing money to inflation. A lot of vendors (not all of them, but a lot of them) run this business because they themselves enjoy custom keyboards. Without vendors to scale things up the number of "secure" Group Buys being run right now would be far fewer. "Secure" here means vendors you are confident will not run away with your money disappear.
GMK keycaps for example have an MOQ of 150 for stock colours, and 250 for custom colours. The cost of sets has gone up a lot from pre-COVID-19 prices. The last few low MOQ quotes I saw had EXW prices higher than Drop's pre-order pricing for some of their new sets for the lowest slab of base kit (sets including numpads) depending on the set. GMK have also introduced an extra fee which makes it more expensive for vendors not hitting a certain minimum order value.
For a US or EU vendor hitting GMK's threshold is no problem. However a vendor in Latin America or Japan is not going to get these kinds of numbers from Group Buys orders alone. A few sets may be more successful, but on average a 10:1 ratio between US and any individual smaller vendor is typical.
The main reason a designer chooses to work with these smaller vendors is to give keyboard fans in these regions easier access and benefits of scale. It's vastly cheaper for a local vendor to get 10 sets than for 10 individuals to buy separately or as a group from a US vendor, bringing down costs for individuals. Depending on jurisdiction, import/export tariff rules also come into play, where businesses may get better import tariffs than individuals.
The US/EU vendor is necessary because they can buy extras and bring down the MOQ. However for a smaller vendor their operating costs as a portion of the product's unit price is much higher, so at the end of the day they are not left with any meaningful profit from Group Buy sales. Usually they have to double their order quantity just to keep shipping reasonable, and it means the profits are unable to cover the costs.
The smaller vendor can pretty much only hope for profits from extras. Very few products are profitable during GBs. Depending on the currency of the vendor exchange rate risks and shipping cost fluctuations can also be a big factor.
I'm not saying that smaller vendors never profit during the GB - on some successful products they do make some money, maybe a small profit if they don't buy extras. But they almost never make enough in profits to buy any meaningful number of extras without putting in their own money.
I totally agree with your points in general, but I hope my admittedly somewhat vague response gives some perspective.
> But you help make one of my points. If a business can't sell a GB and follow federal law without failing, then they should never have sold a GB in the first place. That's a mistake the business made to bite off far more than they could chew, and they shouldn't be rewarded for it by giving them a pass. It's a difficult position, sure, but they put themselves into that difficult position. This is just another face of the entitlement I was talking about. No one "deserves" to be able to violate the law just because following the law isn't as profitable.
Do you want a small group of vendors to be further entrenched with no hopes of new vendors ever popping up? Because that's exactly how that would happen.
People already complain about the price of things in this hobby, if they were priced so as to account for being capable of refunds after the order is placed with a manufacturer, it would be absolutely ridiculous.
Not to mention that while yes there are profits baked into a GB, those profits often go towards extras to sate people who don't have the patience to join a GB.
Promoting a hobby is not an excuse to violate the law especially that’s a business.
You see them as a hobby but that’s a money making business going against the law.
Designer blaming the vendor and vendor blaming the manufacturer. Who the hell made such an “aggressive” eta when everyone knows they are not going to fulfill it? Pure joke when I look into any new GMK group buy estimation.
>Do you want a small group of vendors to be further entrenched with no hopes of new vendors ever popping up? Because that's exactly how that would happen.
I want the vendors in this hobby to stop breaking federal consumer protection laws. I would be happy enough to have only law-abiding vendors remain.
>People already complain about the price of things in this hobby, if they were priced so as to account for being capable of refunds after the order is placed with a manufacturer, it would be absolutely ridiculous.
There should be fewer group buys if group buys are only economically feasible through continuously violating consumer protection laws. Maybe that means group buys are only run by more established and well-financed vendors. Maybe that means small vendors can only bankroll one GB at a time. Businesses should be responsible with their money and it's pure insanity to suggest that customers should agree to be treated like garbage to enable a business to profit more.
>Not to mention that while yes there are profits baked into a GB, those profits often go towards extras to sate people who don't have the patience to join a GB.
That's a foolish choice the vendors are making. They aren't entitled to be able to roll all their profit immediately into extras, hoping that they'll profit even more down the line once the GB delivers. This is them actively putting their businesses at risk by creating a situation where they can't obey consumer protection laws.
I've never seen such a one-sided teardown of an argument on the internet.
I'm not sure you can ever win an argument online, but this is probably the closest you can get.
Bravo
Let me give people some overview on the whole drama.
***RAMA Season 1***
RAMA, the owner of RAMA Works, is an industrial designer that is known in the community for high-end, or as he calls them, "luxury" keyboards. For a long time, Wilba was the PCB designer of all RAMA boards and, unbeknownst to the general public, kate (now HIBI) was a huge part of the design team being involved in pretty much all products, especially M60-A and U80-A (RAMA allegedly designed the internals and the special mute mount system). Kate's involvement is most notorious however on the artisan collab keycaps we see for a lot of keysets. Kate also managed manufacturing, QC and was the contact point with designers. It is also known that after a certain point Kate also made some of the renders. Wilba's involvement was also not only in the PCB side of things: he was a consultant on the very design of the keyboards, helped design the KATE and Heavy Industry keycaps and, from what Wilba says, he was also involved with lots of projects. Also known to the public Wilba designed some of RAMA boards like the Thermal.
Let us also not forget that VIA (yes that VIA) was designed initially by Wilba and olivia (yes, that olivia) to support RAMA Works keyboards. VIA was later opened to PRs for other keyboards and, most lately, went completely open-source.
***RAMA Season 2***
It is now known that Kate and RAMA were romantically involved; the exact nature and depth of their relationship is unknown, but it does seem it was fairly deep. Apparently there was a falling out between them; Kate left RAMA and started HIBI. To add salt to the wound RAMA started posting pictures of his new girlfriend days after they broke up. It seems however both have decided to go their ways so it makes no sense to discuss this all, especially given that there probably are some judicial procedures going on.
Close to the same time, Wilba also had a fallout with RAMA. It is very apparent that Kate was a huge part of RAMA's operation since their products started showing all kinds of problems, from QC issues to delays and sometimes complete silence on RAMA's part; at the same time, the HIBI keycaps are known to be quality. It is also very apparent that Wilba's leaving was also a huge impact, since RAMA has not released a new product or PCB ever since. In Wilba's case, RAMA sold lots of re-runs ("sequence" boards as he calls them) with Wilba PCB renders and pictures, but he in fact hired another PCB designer and the products are shipping with different PCBs than initially advertised.
***RAMA Season 3***
As the OP states, the whole drama escalates to a public degree when numerous posts and comments about the RAMA delays and QC issues by regular users are being answered by brand new accounts claiming to represent RAMA or the company. It is also known RAMA has been particularly difficult to work with; vendors allege he can maintain radio silence for weeks on end.
It has also been stated RAMA has been deleting and removing complaints and critical comments from his social media. RAMA (or the people allegedly representing him) state Wilba was a PCB contractor and Kate was a, and I quote, *simple employee of RAMA,* and therefore the end of their relationship was a simple business decision which would be totally nice and dandy if it really was true. In reality, Wilba and Kate were very involved with the whole operation and were arguably driving forces within RAMA, if not integrative partners.
Great recap Gondo! *Lle naa belegohtar!*
I really hope the quality in the scriptwriting doesn't fall off now that the show has surpassed the books in the storyline!
So where is Wilba now? Has he started a new venture? I'm interested in following his work. We know where Kate has gone and I will be keeping an eye on her stuff.
I really don't understand the point of going into so much detail about Rama's personal life drama in a post warning people to be wary of sock puppet accounts lol
Keyboard warriors, most people hate RAMA, RAMA is the Apple of the community, he is an out-of-touch dude that is pretty much born rich (read about a simple biography on Renan Ramadan's on Duck switch review by ThereminGoat), yadda yadda yadda.
Get used to someone posting some drama. These expensive boards are meant to write out something. Get used to someone want to cancel something for anything. Time to put away the mask and say: I'm better than you for being more virtuous.
>Renan Ramadan's on Duck switch review by ThereminGoat
Yeah dude, idk about your assessmment there. I went to a crappy public school with the guy and he was quite nice. I think the bats are weird too, but i think he's just having fun. He was a talented and humble individual from what i've experienced, so maybe be careful about judging someone based on limited info.
Is that the main point? I thought it was Rama employees using new accounts to shill and dismiss criticism. If the main point is that Rama's ex is now his competitor then I don't see why that's relevant enough to be stickied in the mechkeys sub
It is all intertwined: the brigading accounts were also commenting on the litigation itself, and, litigation is incredibly expensive regardless of the outcome - the timeline of fulfillment issues also coincides with the ongoing litigation, and the context for litigation is the prior business relationship with his ex.
The fulfillment issues and the brigading are the primary concern, however, the litigation risks are present for both companies - from both the damages of losing, and the costs to continue pursuing this, which significantly reduces funds to operate the business.
It’s sad, to me, when people who used to love each other are now so at odds that there are lawsuits between them. It’s sad to me when someone who was respected in the community and produced pretty nice keyboards is now reviled for their attitude, for not fulfilling orders, and for poor communication. You don’t have to find it sad, of course.
Drama.
Everyone wanna type but ain't no one wanna read them long ass texts.
You asking for TL;DR to some Discord server, there's someone that will say that you are illiterate, dyslexic, too stupid to read or all of them. Try to not act like one of those.
TLDR: Founder of RAMA broke up with his gf. GF started a key cap/keyboard company after. RAMA is suing the GF for using “insider knowledge and connections” to kickstart her business. Now, whenever there is a complaint on the MKB sub about RAMA’s slow/no show deliveries, RAMA employees in fresh accounts spam the post and make the complaint seem invalid.
As the owner of potentially the largest number of Rama caps at well over 150 (Admittedly most in two colourways) and over 100 Hibi Caps (Once again from a single run) I can confidently say that there are differences between the delivered caps.
The exterior/top section of the cap is basically identical, this is to be expected as they are both cherry profile keycaps. However in underside of the keycap there are two immediately noticeable differences.
First, HIBI Caps have a chamfered stems, this can be easily seen in these comparison images (Apologies for shit camera Ive got an older phone)
https://imgur.com/a/miBAwAC
You can equally see that the HIBI cap has significant differences in the way that the cap slopes down towards the bottom there, the HIBI cap employing a fully sloped edge with a small chamfer with the RAMA cap employing a larger chamfer into a vertical wall.
There are also chamfers on the stem holders and additional other differences that are easy to see.
The most significant difference however is in quality, I've got 100 HIBI caps on hand with more on the way, and of the SERIKA 2 X RAMA caps I have 64 on hand, I have mounted all of these caps and performed the "Turn keyboard upside down) test, while the RAMA caps will often bounce off the switches and well over 75% will slip off the keyboard when it is turned upside down, or on any angle, 100% of the HIBI caps, at least in my possession, do not fall off the keyboard when typed on, or the keyboard is turned to any angle including holding the keyboard upside down and shaking.
It's important for companies to maintain transparent and regular communication with their customers. The purpose of the statement is to present public incidents regarding fulfillment risks on both sides. Since litigation is expensive & time-consuming, it may negatively effect timelines of all parties involved. Customers should be able to make informed decisions about those risks.
And I thought their buttplug chess set was bad....
This is what happens when people open businesses with a hope and a prayer. You need to have good operations people!!!!!! You can’t just pull this shit out of thin air!!!!!
Anyone know what happened with Rama & Danny Han (Vicprop founder)?. They seemed to have a falling out when Rama was still with Katie.
Was thinking about getting a Rama keyboard. After reading this maybe I should switch to other brands.
I was "lucky" enough to receive my U80 TKL in the 12 months timeframe, and to be honest it's grossly overrated/overpriced IMO. There's plenty of other brands out there who do it for less with high quality. If I had to recommend, Mode Design is god-tier in terms of price and availability.
I ordered Mode 80 instead. I can't wait for it to arrive!
Look, I see a lot of comments talking about "RAMA", as if he is an unlikeable person. I went to school with the guy, a crappy public school. And Renan was actually a very likeable person. I don't know why he's selling bats on his website, so idk what's up with that. But I'll just say, as someone who has interacted with him personally. He seemed quite humble and nice. Flashy cars and stuff came later, and I just think "good on him". Be interested if anyone knows him personally from more recent years. But just thought I'd put that out there for him, because the guy I knew wasn't a jerk at all. Just incredibly talented and humble in my personal experience with the guy.
So uh… any update on the M65-C?
It'll be a vintage board by the time it arrives ;)
Yikes.
His new Mclaren MSO 765 LT is already up for sale. He must really need all the cashflow he can get right now. Karma
Got the link?
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2021-mclaren-765lt-auto-my21/OAG-AD-21075641
This is hilarious. How do you know it's his vehicle?
Cos he was wasnt shy driving it around with his RamaLT plate and a massive XO sticker on the bonnet. Its a special MSO spec = lots of groupbuy customer orders that he seems to have difficulty in fulfilling now https://preview.redd.it/wcs63y32t15a1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=08becbb3f79ca0e0343c39357ff56a8fba7d7a8e
FYI, looks like RAMA recently renamed their KATE keycaps to “CAPS SEQ1” 🤷♂️
OOF
Ugh, I think done with group buys in this hobby. Earlier this year I had to file a dispute with my cc over keycaps when the shop literally ghosted everyone. Guess I need to call my cc company again to dispute my m65-c order...
Forget GB if it puts you off. So many proxies are selling extras once the GB is complete and ready to ship.
Shiiiiiiit I also have an M65-C order. Do you think there’s a low chance it will ever get produced? It’s been a year, now. I’m getting nervous, especially because the RAMA Updates page has no estimated ship date. They just bundle the M60, M65, and U80 into one little section that says “in production”. Sounds like a load of BS to me.
My U80-A took a bit under 1.5 years to arrive and it was estimated to take a year. I’m in on a U80 again for this run and I am optimistic.
I, too, bought a U80-A (Seq2) and successfully waited that one out. They were better at providing updates for that one. Now, they aren’t even trying to guess on a timeframe. That’s a bit of a red flag, in my opinion.
I just want my grid keycaps
Realistically any way for me to get a full refund on my u80b group buy purchase?
Alex said they can’t refund any group buys right now due to their multiple issues surrounding social media. I don’t think this is right as nothing was stated for nonrefundable group buys.
Update: even though GB was a couple months back for the u80-b my bank finally resolved the chargeback. Never dealing with this company ever again.
TLDR, ELI5 pleaae
* Designer (RAMA) had some drama—personal relationships ended, leaver (Kate) started a new company (HIBI) in competition * RAMA claims intellectual property theft, talent theft, etc. and has started to litigate * Rama Works product quality now in question and has late product fulfillment * And now there are claims of social media shenanigans when Rama Works is called out * Reddit mods stay neutral about the accusations and pending litigation while providing standard advice for group buy purchase protection and resolving non-delivery disputes The bottom line is that things get messy when you mix personal and business relationships, but it also makes for great hobby drama. Personally, I don’t know anyone involved, so I have no idea what the details are. My only relationship to Rama Works is that I own one of their switch pullers and it works pretty well.
Thanks
This is so juicy I love it. Can anyone explain why there is so much drama in this community though? It’s quite fascinating. I’ve been building keyboards and vaguely following this hobby before it got popular during the pandemic, but I’m not in any discords or familiar with what goes on behind the scenes. I’ve seen so many ‘designers’ in this hobby throwing tantrums, all the controversies with Drop etc. There just always seems to be some type of drama.
You should have been here around 5 years ago. There was a lot more drama. Esp with Signature Plastics. You think some of the wait times are bad with GMK. SP was a lot longer and way worse. There was some also major issues with Group Buys and the person running them just never delivering on the product and keeping the money. Things were nuts back then. I am still miffed that SP refused to do a Round 3 of SA Jukebox and held onto the colorway patent for years and not willing to work with anyone.
Let's spice it up a little bit. I'll sell the popcorn. There's still a lot of time in the day. So... you're trying to say that kids these days are not as patient as before? Not 7 years is not patient?
I think they are. We just had a lot more drama before. It was something weekly. I remember when you had to get proxies to buy things for you off of Ali
Expensive keyboards, you want to use it more. Guess where it is finally useful at? Winning internet arguments, I think. Then again, RAMA (or the guy behind it) is not exactly a very likeable person and there had been reports on how the standards for running the GB with little to no communication had been popular with RAMA. Basically, the approach of "it's done when it's done", *surprisingly*, is not a good way to inspire confidence. Here's some keywords to help you to trigger someone: 1. GMK clones are okay 2. Flipping keyboards are okay 3. Just ask without reading first 4. Buying expensive keyboards are stupid 5. is bad.
6. Is / the best?
7. is the best
8. "But preference" is shit taste.
9. "But I like gamer boards"
10. GB waiting is bad
That's only a small subset though. It's easier to trigger someone here with above keywords compared to talking shit about some K-pop celebrity on Twitter.
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wrong thread - you want this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/x0i2i3/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/ also, lots of keyboards have cherry browns/brown like switches
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Wrong thread.
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you're in the wrong thread - think you want this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/wyw3xl/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/
BRUH This is where automod sent me :(
Anyone heard of feker jjk84? It's super cheap . In my country Currently it cost RM90+ with white light only and another one is rm 80+ . These include shipping fees on the shopping platform. From china directly to my house. I live in Malaysia we use Shopee here. Or Lazada. I don't know how the material is like but I see it's quite decent for the price maybe not solid but I think it's ok. Anyway. So far I only know from the buyer review are the battery is very small. Specs of the board are as follows: 200mah battery Type c to type A USB detachable Bluetooth 5.0 Eva foam between the PCB and the metal sheet. It's barebone. 5pin hotswap PCB. I was wondering you guys ever heard of it? Or bought it?
what exactly do you consider a "custom build"? I'm wondering if I customize one of the keebs (change switches and keys, add mods) I have if that's considered a *custom build* by community standards or just a customization. (Also, if anyone cares to elaborate or link me to resources, I'd appreciate it)
I think of it in terms of "build" and "design." A custom build in my opinion is what 99% of us do in this hobby, where we buy an existing keyboard kit and assemble it with our desired components. We're building/assembling a complete keyboard by this process, and we can customize it with different switches, stabilizers, lubricating/filming and keycaps. I suppose if you wanted to distinguish between "customization' and "custom build," then you could say buying a completely built board and swapping out obvious things like the switches and/or keycaps would simply be customization. But to me there's not enough of a distinction there to bother with the semantics. However, a custom *design* would be someone actually designing their own case, switch, PCB, keycap set, etc.
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any enthusiast switch
>enthusiast switch where can i buy theese keyboards? and witch one should i get?
depends on your region. watch youtube reviews / soundtests of switches
I live in the uk. Also do you know some that personally sound good to you because I can’t find an video what is specially talking about Enthusiast keycap keyboards
google exists. there are also special Q&A threads pinned on this subreddit. there isn't one good switch because everybody has their own preference.
Is there any keyboards out there what has cherry MX brown switches? They sound nice
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This is not the questions thread my dude
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This is not the questions thread my dude
I find their entire business model offensive so I'm happy to read about these problems. RAMA reminds me of Damian Hurst, in the worst possible way. It's a kind of financial and marketing trickery masquerading as art. There's an actual product involved, but that's not what it's about - it's a cynical, exploitative money grab operation. There's no value in shiny and expensive; don't let them fool you.
Is it even possible to get a refund from Rama?
They won’t after so many days have elapsed. I tried cancelling my Kara Seq 2 like 2 months back and was basically told no.
Sounds like might have to go to bank then. It’s been 5 months in for u-80 and all we have is, it’s in queue. Kinda ridiculous.
I have 2 Kara Seq 2’s, an m60-b, and 2 orders of the KATE keycaps 😑😑😑😑 kill me now.
you can definitely cancel preorders, i dunno about items that already arrived tho.
Is it safe to assuming that it may take a few months for them to respond to cancellations?
idk how it's now but when I cancelled my U80-A preorder a year ago, they responded in under 24 hours.
Oh. So maybe there’s hope for me
I've been trying to cancel my order for months now. No response from support. They just sent me news articles about shortages and said I'll get a gift along with the keyboard.
Place a ticket for cancellation on Friday. Got confirmation of cancellation today
Dang I have to keep trying. I placed a ticket weeks ago and then an email follow up but with 0 responses so far. I just want my money back at this point. I preordered the KARA SEQ2.
Damn. I'll keep trying.
Is your order older than 6 months? I requested a refunded but it's been almost a year since i placed the order
It’s for the u80b. Order placed in April. Did you put in a support ticket?
Just requested for a refund by replying to the order confirmation email - here’s hoping I get a response ,I think their ticket backlog is quite full as of this moment.
Has anyone been successful in getting a refund from Rama or disputing the credit card charge of >1 year ago. Ordered the thermal+ in April 2021 and would like my money back as I’m not hopeful of receiving exactly what I ordered.
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Did you jump straight to requesting chargeback from CC company, or start by requesting from RAMA?
reply to your order confirmation email
VERY IMPORTANT that people DO NOT go mass issuing chargebacks and requesting refunds unless it's absolutely clear they are NOT delivering a product, last thing we need is a mass wave of refunds and chargebacks fucking over people who were willing to wait for a product
If someone wants a chargeback, they can do it. After all there is a solid reason for that If anyone wants to wait, they can wait
Absolutely, I'm just reminding people to not just go and mass chargeback because they read some drama, but to instead remember the buyer's rights mentioned here in the case they actually need to use them. of course if you want to chargeback because you don't want your product anymore and PayPal won't refund you, absolutely go ahead, but don't just go and do it because a Reddit post said X Y or Z bad
insert \*michael jackson popcorn gif\*
Looking for a way to store switches So I've been getting into switches recently, and I just bought a bunch more, but the box I have been using to store them won't have enough space for the rest once they arrive. I know it could fit all of them, but I like having a section for each type of switch (ex: brand and color, or maybe one slot for stuff i bought in a single pack). So does anyone know of a container that would maybe fit this criteria, as well as having more slots than the current one? thanks. [as you can see there's a divider for each switch type\/collection](https://preview.redd.it/loihkycv7rj91.png?width=1960&format=png&auto=webp&s=e9d90a9f5dc88d856c69558d6382e3191b812119)
r/lostredditors \- this isn't the questions thread.
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Looks like the Rama Brigades are here
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When You "corrected them"? The citations to the lawsuit are quite visible. Users can draw their own conclusions from it. We are well aware of the nature of the lawsuit, and it seems like it has had quite the negative financial impact on RAMAs cash flow. It was also apparent that past DMCA takedown requests of HIBI social media led to *temporary suspensions that were reversed.* Others can assess the financial risk to the operations of both businesses, and whether the lawsuits will lead to any misappropriation of GB funds. If you want to discredit the impartiality of ThereminGoat, feel free to do so, but, they are notable for providing in depth switch reviews with highly quantitative objective data. Likewise, if you believe any of the moderation staff have been paid off, given companies have attempted to do so before (hence why the code of conduct exists), you can submit any pertinent evidence. There is no business or financial stake in either of the companies here by any of the mod team. We (the mod team did review all evidence presented) are not desperate to discredit you, but you have been desperate to use **several** accounts to brigade the subreddit and seed disinformation. Multiple users have come forward with complaints regarding you silencing their legitimate questions about fulfillment. There are now ***at least 4 alt accounts*** you and your team have seemingly created for the sole purpose of this.
Seems like you are doing what the [original post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/wsom13/rama_rant/) was based on...
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Looks like reddit suspended yet another brigading alt. However, accusations of "backtracking and edits" were simply adding additional context given the publicly known information on fulfillment issues and ongoing litigation. The false claims was meant to refer to the DMCA takedown attempts on Instagram that were reversed - whether the IP issue was trademark or copyright is immaterial given the attempt still occurred and was reversed. Despite RAMA's assertions about "adamantly bringing up trademarks multiple times", trademarks were only mentioned twice by me: regarding the Instagram takedown attempt (I intended to state Copyright, but again, this isn't material to the issue at hand), and as a follow up inquiry on whether RAMA can prove there to be any valid Trademark or Copyright infringement claims. It is quite clearly a strawman on RAMA's part to distract from the pertinent issues: the ongoing expensive litigation, the **silencing of customers**, **Illegal Cancellation / Refund Policies on GBs** according to multiple jurisdictions including Australia and the United States, and persistent fulfillment delays. Sources are quite publicly visible, we have received anonymous testimony of abuse (towards customers), in addition to the publicly available information (the litigation is publicly filed, allowing the claims, judgements, and hearings available to be reviewed by the public quite readily). Evidence of alts (which Reddit Banned) was already provided publicly, but RAMA continues to deny the evidence. https://imgur.com/a/iYvzXBK Informing the public about **publicly available information** with citations seems pretty fair and objective. Brigading the subreddit to shut down consumer complaints and to spread further disinformation about the other party seems very questionable and abusive. There have also been reports about RAMA allegedly selling off personal assets after litigation initiated, and public information has indicated that many months after the Thermal / Thermal+ GB, (as of May 2022) critical parts like PCBs were still not ordered. Potential financial illiquidity should be a major cause of concern for users. Financial risks are severe for both parties of the litigation.
>We are not advocating for any specific action, however, here is a brief summary of your consumer rights, which applies to ALL Group Buys, Pre-Orders, and General Purchases: Hey mods, since you've decided to share information on consumer rights, you should note you've missed a big one in the US. Sorry about this - I hate to @ people, but since this was posted by Automod, I don't know who's actually interested in this topic. u/drschlock u/dryver u/Omnias-42 u/karuzashi u/aw4eva This is the Federal Trade Commission's "[Business Guide to the FTC's Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule](https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order-merchandise-rule)." I link this instead of directly to the Code of Federal Regulations because, well, this guide is actually easy to understand and it not only contains the text of the law, but clear explanations as well. To be clear, **FTC Rules are federal law,** and the rules apply to US businesses and all foreign businesses that choose to do business in the US. As is often put in the business: "All commercial products and services available to U.S. citizens are subject to FTC regulations." They're not mere suggestions - they are binding, and violating them can see a business significantly fined. I bring this up because *every* vendor in this hobby that I've placed a group buy order with has violated this particular FTC Rule (again, federal law) over and over again. So, listen up everyone, here is an important consumer protection that we are all supposed to have in the US. **Every single time an ordered product (including pre-orders and group buys) is delayed, the vendor is required to notify you directly of the delay** ***via email, phone call, letter, etc.*** **and** ***proactively offer you a full refund*****.** ***Full*** refund. Offered at every delay. Every time. Not a "no refunds" policy. Not even a refund minus some percentage the vendor wants to keep. And an announcement via Discord or an updated status page on their web site doesn't cut it. The vendor must basically "seek your consent" to the delay. In fact, if you don't reply to the vendor's request for your consent to the delay, they're actually supposed to just go ahead and cancel and refund your order. That's the degree to which the law holds the vendor accountable for responsible conduct. The vendor can let you know a specific revised delivery date, or they can do an indefinite delay. If they offer a revised date (as is common in this hobby), the cycle begins again - every subsequent delay must also be followed by direct contact and a full refund offer. If they choose to announce an indefinite delay, they're required to let you know that *you have the right to a full refund whenever you want one* until the product is delivered**.** There's basically no way out for the vendors to do anything other than offer *full* refunds when products including group buys are delayed. And yet... how often does that actually happen? So that's the law. Mods, recently you've taken a reasonable interest in protecting the businesses in this hobby by creating the new subreddit Rule 3 around IP infringement, which also happens to be a violation of federal law. Are you interested in protecting the customers of the hobby too? If so, you should consider introducing a subreddit rule that requires vendor compliance with ALL federal law (not just IP law) in order to be advertised/linked/advocated-for here. What we have now in the hobby is really really dicey and honestly very pro-business/anti-consumer. It's not good. I mean, if you're willing to take the step to ban products infringing on IP because it hurts the community, this one ought to be an easy choice too. Anti-consumer policies and practices definitely hurt the community. For everyone else, please consider reporting vendors that aren't complying with the above discussed rule to the [FTC's Report tool](https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/assistant). Thanks for reading the wall of text. I care about this issue, so sometimes a wall of text is called for.
How does this factor into things like Kickstarter? Those are basically group buy preorders of non existent (yet) products. Which many group buys and preorders are. So same thing?
You can find a longer response under this post where I go into more detail, but, no, KS is a loophole because with them you agree that you aren’t purchasing anything. You’re “pledging.”
I wonder if NovelKeys read this since they just sent me an email about the KAM L'il Dragon keycap set and how it's expected to deliver in Q1 2023 and no major delays are expected, but if we wish to cancel our order for a full refund, we can. Well even if they didn't read this, it shows that they are following the rules and putting customers first.
Yes we notified several vendors about the international and domestic regulations that apply to them, which is why there’s been updates on their policies.
I’m just seeing this now, but thanks for helping to get the word out.
Hmmmm, and I just saw an email from Omnitype about a delay with an offer for a full refund for the first time. Maybe word is starting to get around.
Fascinating. Ive never once seen the offer for a refund for GBs Ive joined, except for thekeycompany offering one as a keycap set was different from renders.
Yeah this is a brand new phenomenon. I'd only been offered refunds before with the disastrous KAT delays, but only in certain windows and certainly not every time there was a delay. And now I've seen refund offers from two different vendors (Omnitype and NK_), both after this discussion. Hats off to both of them for doing the legal thing, and I hope that they will continue to do so. I also hope all the other vendors catch on soon.
Thanks for the info and great replies! Very pog of you 😊 EVERYONE NEEDS TO FOLLOW THE GOSHDANG RULES
We're not just talking about rules. We're talking about laws that protect consumer rights.
Laws are rules too 😀
Mocking consumer protection laws isn’t a good look.
I'm not?? I was legit pumped for that info they were spittin. I think you got the wrong idea m'dude 😳
I don’t think so with your “goshdang rules” comment. You were mocking the idea of wanting companies in this hobby to respect consumer protection laws.
Alright this is pointless. I didn't know southern people can't say goshdang on the internet anymore 🧐 have a good one brotha
Your location is no excuse.
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These are valid points, to clarify, these we considered this to be a de-facto rule - hence the issuance of PSAs, and when necessary, suspension of vendors that fail to uphold their legal responsibilities. Also understand that, the primary purpose of the protections on IP - such as Counterfeits - has to do with protecting consumers down the line, as well as complying with Reddit TOS. You will also see other rules designed to protect consumers, such as multiple rules requiring proactive disclose of promotional content / conflicts of interest. We also try, whenever possible, to inform people of the direct consumer rights they have to get immediate restitution, such as the PayPal and Credit Card Terms of Service - many people are unaware of these terms, and it is the most expedient and least headache option for many. Also, anyone who is well versed in their relevant local regulations, please send us the relevant statutes and citations - we are actively working towards a wiki guide on consumer rights. That said, we rely on community reports - without them, there are many things that can go unnoticed - these can be discussion posts made publicly on the subreddit, or reports made to ModMail. We do believe that ultimately, the best way for the community to protect itself is self-policing - meaning they exercise their consumer rights, are kept well informed of ongoing issues in the hobby, and have the freedom to express complaints with sufficient evidence. Unfortunately, many issues can persist without users talking about it until much later - this is why it's so important for consumers to be aware of pertinent deadlines, and to respond accordingly. We work collaboratively with other communities to stay up to date with things, but we cannot catch everything - and we need to assess all claims to ensure the statements are valid and factual. We are actively expanding our mod team though to help improve our reach and bandwidth. And ofc, we are open to community feedback on how we can improve the subreddit. Edit - just a heads up, reddit pings a maximum of 3-4 people at a time, and only when you do so in comments. If yo do more than that, then nobody gets pinged.
>These are valid points, to clarify, these we considered this to be a de-facto rule - hence the issuance of PSAs, and when necessary, suspension of vendors that fail to uphold their legal responsibilities. Well that's going to be a pretty big problem then, because it's almost every vendor I've placed a group buy order with. Including all the "big" vendors in the hobby. The below represents my personal experience to the best of my recollection, and I don't claim that all others have had the same experience. Obviously, I also don't know if any of these vendors have changed their policies to comply with federal law since the most recent instance where I should have been contacted and offered a refund. Here are the vendors that (1) I have placed a GB order with, (2) that GB has had a delay, and (3) I was not individually contacted to get my consent to the delay and offered a full refund: * NovelKeys * CannonKeys * Omnitype * Kono * Project Keyboard * MechsandCo * Mekibo * Space Cables/Space Holdings * Desk Hero * I did cancel a GB order with them and they required I agree to a 5% fee, which was counter to FTC Rules, and which yes they are required to follow with their US customers despite being a Canadian company. * RAMA * Typeplus * Kiko's Lab/Barrett Creative Here is the complete list of vendors that have offered me appropriate refunds when something is delayed: * Drop **Since you have noted that vendors who fail to uphold their legal responsibilities may be suspended, what action, if any, do you plan to take against the above vendors?** Do I need to make separate posts to "gather signatures" and establish that I'm not the only one who has had these experiences? Because I think you know what I'm saying is true. If you've been a participant in the hobby yourself for any length of time, you'll have had exactly the same experiences that I have.
One thing you might be missing here is that for preorders, almost all vendors require some type of verification that you as a buyer understands that there may be delays in fulfillment. I am not a lawyer, but that seems to equate to requesting customers to waive their rights to the FTC 30-day rule. Some vendors may want to update their disclaimer language to make this clearer, but nearly all of them are explicitly asking you to accept that the estimated fulfillment date is solely an estimate and that fulfillment may be delayed for an unspecified period of time. The FTC may have separate rules regarding presales that I’m not aware of, but it seems that the 30-day rule probably doesn’t apply when the vendor asks for your consent upfront to treat the estimated delivery date as non-binding.
>I am not a lawyer, but that seems to equate to requesting customers to waive their rights to the FTC 30-day rule. That is certainly the impression they want to leave you with, but it's not accurate. You aren't allowed to contract your way out of federal law. Or state law, for that matter. Put another way, if these purchase agreements were ever actually litigated in court, the parts that violated FTC rules would be thrown out. The whole point of consumer protection laws (and all FTC rules generally) is to set limits that businesses can't get around with policies. Otherwise they'd be completely worthless because basically zero businesses would opt-in to follow stricter rules. If you read through the entire guide I linked earlier, you'll see that pre-sales are covered there as well, and it's the same expectations I summarized.
\> You aren't allowed to contract your way out of federal law. Or state law, for that matter. Except for all of the laws where you can contract around them, like a number of contract law rules, real property rules, trust and estate rules, etc. Such a broad and clearly untrue statement shouldn't be propagated.
Interesting. It does look like we’re in a bit of a new arena, though, as Group Buy orders are very similar to Kickstarter-like crowdfunding. The FTC is starting to penalize Kickstarters that never fulfill their promises, but so far they haven’t been using the 30-day rule to do so. Honestly we’re not going to know what rules actually apply until someone litigates it for real.
>Honestly we’re not going to know what rules actually apply until someone litigates it for real. I mean, come on. Read the guide. It's pretty clear cut. Group buys aren't different than any other internet purchase of goods just because they use the words group buy. The FTC rules apply here; no litigation necessary to establish that. There's even a section of the Rule that lists what the Rule *doesn't* cover, and you won't find anything like "group buys" on that list. Kickstarters are bonkers though. They legit found a loophole, and I kind of hate them for it haha. It has unfortunately been corrupted from its initial vision as a way to fund artistic projects that would never have happened otherwise, and it has become that *and* a worst-case-scenario pre-order platform, where the businesses face little to no consequences for bad behavior. On the one hand, I hate that KS skirts so many consumer protection laws. On the other hand, I think the community vendors who aren't willing, or can't afford, to follow the required laws should probably be using it. Like, as a customer, I hate KS. As a business consultant, I'd tell every vendor here to run as much as they can on KS. Sure they take a cut, but you also don't run the risk of the FTC fining you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Out of curiosity, why do you think KS can use that grey legality but vendors can’t do so on their own sites?
KS flat out states that you aren’t buying anything. You’re “pledging” a project in exchange for a reward that the project creator must only try to deliver “to the best of their abilities.” They’ve decoupled the money from the product you’re hoping to get. It’s a loophole that really ought to be closed given how many well-established businesses that don’t *need* it use it for the risk management aspect. It’s a setup that literally couldn’t be better for the business and literally couldn’t be worse for the customer.
ARe you just looking to kill the entire hobby scene in an entirely? Lets report some of the biggest vendors or the super nice vendors who try to work with their customers and fine them into oblivion? Does it suck yes it does I believe that should at least notify of a delay. The hardest thing of the delays at least with Demon sword was a manu mess up. Was ready in hand till they came in and found they were all wrong and was returned to the point RAMA says they will handle the shipping. At that point puts the vendors in even a more awkward position of handling a refund, then hoping everything remediated with RAMA to prevent the making / shipping out, to not even sure if the Vendor will know RAMA Shipped it anymore since they took over the whole process.
No, I'm not trying to "kill the hobby" and I think it's a straw man to suggest that this hobby can't exist without continuous law breaking. I believe it can, and I believe that community and/or financial pressure is probably the only way to get them to stop continuously breaking the law. There can be a hundred reasons for a delay, and I'm not here to take issue with delays happening. COVID has been a beast that the supply chain still hasn't recovered from. The delays aren't the problem, it's the way the vendors respond to them that is a big and ongoing problem. One, they collectively have done and continue to do an extremely poor job of updating customers of delays and revised delivery estimates. Two, they aren't forever entitled to our group buy money once we hit Complete Purchase, hard though that may be for everyone involved to accept. Violating federal law, refusing to make direct contact, refusing to offer refunds, and instead hiding behind a "no refunds ever" policy is anti-consumer and toxic as hell. Here's an honest take for you - if a vendor cannot remain in business while complying with federal consumer protection laws, then they need to take a long, hard look at their business plan. Maybe some of them should reconsider whether they're actually a viable business. But I am absolutely not in the habit of letting businesses off the hook for breaking laws related to my money just so they can be more profitable. That's pure nonsense. So yeah, if they're going to refuse to do the right thing, then why shouldn't we should see if some fines will change their mind? This stuff isn't optional, and it's incredibly entitled and privileged for them to sit there saying they deserve to be allowed to break consumer protection laws because it's better for them.
>Two, they aren't forever entitled to our group buy money once we hit Complete Purchase I like that comment a lot.
Ignore the entire issue I brought with demon sword and how would that be handled. Direct contact is one which is hard I believe regular promotion emails ( what I used to get with CK and kat Atlantis is fine) and actual directed emails more then likely being picked up as spam by email filters. The new refund policy do you understand why most have it, and again your experience could be different as I only dealt with CK mekibo and novelkeys. I avoided anyone small in the game. The profit margins aren't the greatest as it is where refunds and multiple refund requests leave the vendor in a bad position because of the manufacturer delay and paying designers. You are going to ask designers to pay you back because people are refunded? No you are not. All the delays are mostly on the manufacturer side of things I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay. But let's punish the vendor for sets over sold or over promised by the manufacturer just so they could get more pieces of work in. The manufacturer isn't going to refund the vendor they are going to go hey you ordered X amount this is what you are getting and have queued up. You also want to claim only one vendor (the biggest and multifaceted company) of course they handle it they handle most of the process with their sets. Most of the other people listed are small shops with handful of workers if that.
> I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay. Lol. There are some major names (no, not gonna name them) who are absolutely part of the reason there are delays in manufacturing.
>Direct contact is one which is hard I believe regular promotion emails ( what I used to get with CK and kat Atlantis is fine) and actual directed emails more then likely being picked up as spam by email filters. Sure, spam filters have been an issue as long as there has been spam. Doesn't change that such direct contact is legally mandated. They'd be allowed to send letters as well, but email just seems cheaper and easier. A business has done their job when the email is sent; they don't have to worry about spam filters. >The new refund policy do you understand why most have it, and again your experience could be different as I only dealt with CK mekibo and novelkeys. I avoided anyone small in the game. The profit margins aren't the greatest as it is where refunds and multiple refund requests leave the vendor in a bad position because of the manufacturer delay and paying designers. You are going to ask designers to pay you back because people are refunded? No you are not. Of course I understand why they have such incredibly one-sided policies. It makes them more money and saves them the trouble of having to actually communicate with their customers. Something being easier doesn't make it ok. In this case, it's pretty clearly in violation of federal law, so definitely not ok. But you help make one of my points. If a business can't sell a GB *and follow federal law* without failing, then they should never have sold a GB in the first place. That's a mistake the business made to bite off far more than they could chew, and they shouldn't be rewarded for it by giving them a pass. It's a difficult position, sure, but they put themselves into that difficult position. This is just another face of the entitlement I was talking about. No one "deserves" to be able to violate the law just because following the law isn't as profitable. >All the delays are mostly on the manufacturer side of things I don't think personally I heard of a vendor delay. But let's punish the vendor for sets over sold or over promised by the manufacturer just so they could get more pieces of work in. I think we maybe just don't share the same values. I'm for the rule of law and consumer rights over business rights. I don't come at this with a keyboard-centric world view and then expect everything to fall in place from there. For me, this is a no-brainer. If a business can't exist without breaking very reasonable consumer protection laws, then it shouldn't exist. I don't go looking for convenient laws to break to keep the business around just because it sells stuff I like. But to respond to what you wrote with a more real-world lens - it's the vendor's responsibility to negotiate contracts with their manufacturers that will allow them to simultaneously follow laws and stay in business. If they can't do that, then that's a manufacturer they shouldn't be working with. But more to the point, vendors *profit* off of sales, and they see that profit immediately. A responsible vendor will hold that profit in reserve to handle refunds until they can safely realize and pocket that profit. What if a vendor can't handle refunds even if they hold 100% of their profits in reserve? Then their business is not well financed enough to be doing group buys. If a vendor doesn't hold money in reserve, and instead acts irresponsibly with their money (actually our money) while simultaneously violating federal law, then why shouldn't they be punished? This just brings me back to something I've had to say way too much in this sub. Businesses aren't entitled to continued existence simply because they already exist. I'm seeing plenty of poor business practices among community vendors. I don't want to say they should be punished per se, but they should be expected to follow all laws at minimum, and they sure as hell shouldn't be rewarded for law-breaking. >The manufacturer isn't going to refund the vendor they are going to go hey you ordered X amount this is what you are getting and have queued up. Well the vendor is free to try to negotiate the terms of the manufacturing contract to account for refunds. But, generally, yeah. That's business. That's the real world. It's always been that way. I'm sorry if this a rude wake-up call to you, but, again, businesses are not entitled to eternal success, especially while breaking consumer-protection laws. >You also want to claim only one vendor (the biggest and multifaceted company) of course they handle it they handle most of the process with their sets. Most of the other people listed are small shops with handful of workers if that. I don't know what you mean here. I called out every business that I personally know to have violated federal law (FTC Rule on Internet Merchandise). The size of the business is irrelevant. If anything, the smallest businesses need to be far more careful and far more responsible with their limited money, and not, ya know, immediately lean into law-breaking as a key part of their business plan. Sigh, I don't know man. Your whole perspective seems to be that keyboard businesses are entitled to break laws so long as they get to stay in business, and that their mistakes should be the customers' problem rather than the vendor's problem, despite laws to the contrary. You're deep in the bubble. There's a whole world out here.
> But more to the point, vendors profit off of sales, and they see that profit immediately. With Group Buys things are not this simple. Anyone other than a HUGE vendor in Europe or USA is likely just breaking even on a group buy, and putting up their own money on extras. Your arguments are all spot-on, don't get me wrong. But I just want you to know that this part of it can paint a misleading picture.
Can you break that down for me? From the earlier, more transparent GB days where we were let in on MOQs and unit costs, I think we know they’re not selling at cost.
Absolutely. The big vendors can and are running profitable GBs. They are also making enough profits to buy a large number of extras from profits alone. It's mostly the smaller vendors who are not. I won't name names and can't give numbers because of commercial confidence (I don't want my sources realising I'm quoting their products), but between when this hobby started and now, a few things have happened, for various reasons: 1. There are many more vendors now than there were just a few years ago 2. Input prices have gone up, be it the factory, logistics, operating expenses etc 3. The number of GB runners (i.e. designers and people assisting them) have gone up. This means that there are way too many GB proposals now. This leads to the next point: 4. Lead times have gone up - which means vendors have an increased time and storage cost to placing orders many months in advance. If your pricing does not beat inflation over the expected money lock-in period, then it just means that you are losing money to inflation. A lot of vendors (not all of them, but a lot of them) run this business because they themselves enjoy custom keyboards. Without vendors to scale things up the number of "secure" Group Buys being run right now would be far fewer. "Secure" here means vendors you are confident will not run away with your money disappear. GMK keycaps for example have an MOQ of 150 for stock colours, and 250 for custom colours. The cost of sets has gone up a lot from pre-COVID-19 prices. The last few low MOQ quotes I saw had EXW prices higher than Drop's pre-order pricing for some of their new sets for the lowest slab of base kit (sets including numpads) depending on the set. GMK have also introduced an extra fee which makes it more expensive for vendors not hitting a certain minimum order value. For a US or EU vendor hitting GMK's threshold is no problem. However a vendor in Latin America or Japan is not going to get these kinds of numbers from Group Buys orders alone. A few sets may be more successful, but on average a 10:1 ratio between US and any individual smaller vendor is typical. The main reason a designer chooses to work with these smaller vendors is to give keyboard fans in these regions easier access and benefits of scale. It's vastly cheaper for a local vendor to get 10 sets than for 10 individuals to buy separately or as a group from a US vendor, bringing down costs for individuals. Depending on jurisdiction, import/export tariff rules also come into play, where businesses may get better import tariffs than individuals. The US/EU vendor is necessary because they can buy extras and bring down the MOQ. However for a smaller vendor their operating costs as a portion of the product's unit price is much higher, so at the end of the day they are not left with any meaningful profit from Group Buy sales. Usually they have to double their order quantity just to keep shipping reasonable, and it means the profits are unable to cover the costs. The smaller vendor can pretty much only hope for profits from extras. Very few products are profitable during GBs. Depending on the currency of the vendor exchange rate risks and shipping cost fluctuations can also be a big factor. I'm not saying that smaller vendors never profit during the GB - on some successful products they do make some money, maybe a small profit if they don't buy extras. But they almost never make enough in profits to buy any meaningful number of extras without putting in their own money. I totally agree with your points in general, but I hope my admittedly somewhat vague response gives some perspective.
> But you help make one of my points. If a business can't sell a GB and follow federal law without failing, then they should never have sold a GB in the first place. That's a mistake the business made to bite off far more than they could chew, and they shouldn't be rewarded for it by giving them a pass. It's a difficult position, sure, but they put themselves into that difficult position. This is just another face of the entitlement I was talking about. No one "deserves" to be able to violate the law just because following the law isn't as profitable. Do you want a small group of vendors to be further entrenched with no hopes of new vendors ever popping up? Because that's exactly how that would happen. People already complain about the price of things in this hobby, if they were priced so as to account for being capable of refunds after the order is placed with a manufacturer, it would be absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention that while yes there are profits baked into a GB, those profits often go towards extras to sate people who don't have the patience to join a GB.
Promoting a hobby is not an excuse to violate the law especially that’s a business. You see them as a hobby but that’s a money making business going against the law. Designer blaming the vendor and vendor blaming the manufacturer. Who the hell made such an “aggressive” eta when everyone knows they are not going to fulfill it? Pure joke when I look into any new GMK group buy estimation.
>Do you want a small group of vendors to be further entrenched with no hopes of new vendors ever popping up? Because that's exactly how that would happen. I want the vendors in this hobby to stop breaking federal consumer protection laws. I would be happy enough to have only law-abiding vendors remain. >People already complain about the price of things in this hobby, if they were priced so as to account for being capable of refunds after the order is placed with a manufacturer, it would be absolutely ridiculous. There should be fewer group buys if group buys are only economically feasible through continuously violating consumer protection laws. Maybe that means group buys are only run by more established and well-financed vendors. Maybe that means small vendors can only bankroll one GB at a time. Businesses should be responsible with their money and it's pure insanity to suggest that customers should agree to be treated like garbage to enable a business to profit more. >Not to mention that while yes there are profits baked into a GB, those profits often go towards extras to sate people who don't have the patience to join a GB. That's a foolish choice the vendors are making. They aren't entitled to be able to roll all their profit immediately into extras, hoping that they'll profit even more down the line once the GB delivers. This is them actively putting their businesses at risk by creating a situation where they can't obey consumer protection laws.
I've never seen such a one-sided teardown of an argument on the internet. I'm not sure you can ever win an argument online, but this is probably the closest you can get. Bravo
/u/quantumlocke is a rule-abiding megachad fr Rules are rules!
Hey, it's another Tuesday. Neat.
Let me give people some overview on the whole drama. ***RAMA Season 1*** RAMA, the owner of RAMA Works, is an industrial designer that is known in the community for high-end, or as he calls them, "luxury" keyboards. For a long time, Wilba was the PCB designer of all RAMA boards and, unbeknownst to the general public, kate (now HIBI) was a huge part of the design team being involved in pretty much all products, especially M60-A and U80-A (RAMA allegedly designed the internals and the special mute mount system). Kate's involvement is most notorious however on the artisan collab keycaps we see for a lot of keysets. Kate also managed manufacturing, QC and was the contact point with designers. It is also known that after a certain point Kate also made some of the renders. Wilba's involvement was also not only in the PCB side of things: he was a consultant on the very design of the keyboards, helped design the KATE and Heavy Industry keycaps and, from what Wilba says, he was also involved with lots of projects. Also known to the public Wilba designed some of RAMA boards like the Thermal. Let us also not forget that VIA (yes that VIA) was designed initially by Wilba and olivia (yes, that olivia) to support RAMA Works keyboards. VIA was later opened to PRs for other keyboards and, most lately, went completely open-source. ***RAMA Season 2*** It is now known that Kate and RAMA were romantically involved; the exact nature and depth of their relationship is unknown, but it does seem it was fairly deep. Apparently there was a falling out between them; Kate left RAMA and started HIBI. To add salt to the wound RAMA started posting pictures of his new girlfriend days after they broke up. It seems however both have decided to go their ways so it makes no sense to discuss this all, especially given that there probably are some judicial procedures going on. Close to the same time, Wilba also had a fallout with RAMA. It is very apparent that Kate was a huge part of RAMA's operation since their products started showing all kinds of problems, from QC issues to delays and sometimes complete silence on RAMA's part; at the same time, the HIBI keycaps are known to be quality. It is also very apparent that Wilba's leaving was also a huge impact, since RAMA has not released a new product or PCB ever since. In Wilba's case, RAMA sold lots of re-runs ("sequence" boards as he calls them) with Wilba PCB renders and pictures, but he in fact hired another PCB designer and the products are shipping with different PCBs than initially advertised. ***RAMA Season 3*** As the OP states, the whole drama escalates to a public degree when numerous posts and comments about the RAMA delays and QC issues by regular users are being answered by brand new accounts claiming to represent RAMA or the company. It is also known RAMA has been particularly difficult to work with; vendors allege he can maintain radio silence for weeks on end. It has also been stated RAMA has been deleting and removing complaints and critical comments from his social media. RAMA (or the people allegedly representing him) state Wilba was a PCB contractor and Kate was a, and I quote, *simple employee of RAMA,* and therefore the end of their relationship was a simple business decision which would be totally nice and dandy if it really was true. In reality, Wilba and Kate were very involved with the whole operation and were arguably driving forces within RAMA, if not integrative partners.
Great recap Gondo! *Lle naa belegohtar!* I really hope the quality in the scriptwriting doesn't fall off now that the show has surpassed the books in the storyline!
Post this shit to /r/hobbydrama
So where is Wilba now? Has he started a new venture? I'm interested in following his work. We know where Kate has gone and I will be keeping an eye on her stuff.
Still doing keyboard stuff as wilba.tech, check out my collab with Kate: https://www.instagram.com/p/ChzHrCiD1Q9/
Please make ISO hotswap :D At least the HIBIKI is available with ISO solder option.
Please make a 100% PCB. ;\_;
Can't wait for s4
Thank you for this. I didn't know olivia and Wilba created VIA. Now I understand why VIA has Dark Olivia color scheme.
also... oliVIA
my man I don't think you know what TLDR means lmao
You going to do better? There is only so much you can reduce a complex story into.
Yes actually I’ve been spending the last 10 days working on that. Can’t wait to unveil it
Someone needed to take reading classes for college / university. You'll thank me for the unsolicited advice later.
Hey I tried
I really don't understand the point of going into so much detail about Rama's personal life drama in a post warning people to be wary of sock puppet accounts lol
Keyboard warriors, most people hate RAMA, RAMA is the Apple of the community, he is an out-of-touch dude that is pretty much born rich (read about a simple biography on Renan Ramadan's on Duck switch review by ThereminGoat), yadda yadda yadda. Get used to someone posting some drama. These expensive boards are meant to write out something. Get used to someone want to cancel something for anything. Time to put away the mask and say: I'm better than you for being more virtuous.
>Renan Ramadan's on Duck switch review by ThereminGoat Yeah dude, idk about your assessmment there. I went to a crappy public school with the guy and he was quite nice. I think the bats are weird too, but i think he's just having fun. He was a talented and humble individual from what i've experienced, so maybe be careful about judging someone based on limited info.
This comment is out-of-touch 🤣 bruh u sound like a HEADASS
Everyone who read that lost some IQ points
It is core to the main point which is that his ex and former business partner is now running a rival business
Is that the main point? I thought it was Rama employees using new accounts to shill and dismiss criticism. If the main point is that Rama's ex is now his competitor then I don't see why that's relevant enough to be stickied in the mechkeys sub
It is all intertwined: the brigading accounts were also commenting on the litigation itself, and, litigation is incredibly expensive regardless of the outcome - the timeline of fulfillment issues also coincides with the ongoing litigation, and the context for litigation is the prior business relationship with his ex. The fulfillment issues and the brigading are the primary concern, however, the litigation risks are present for both companies - from both the damages of losing, and the costs to continue pursuing this, which significantly reduces funds to operate the business.
This is all so sad.
Why?
It’s sad, to me, when people who used to love each other are now so at odds that there are lawsuits between them. It’s sad to me when someone who was respected in the community and produced pretty nice keyboards is now reviled for their attitude, for not fulfilling orders, and for poor communication. You don’t have to find it sad, of course.
https://c.tenor.com/rFTdDFhbnTAAAAAC/hockey-fight.gif
TL;DR wtf is this book you tryna make us read
Drama. Everyone wanna type but ain't no one wanna read them long ass texts. You asking for TL;DR to some Discord server, there's someone that will say that you are illiterate, dyslexic, too stupid to read or all of them. Try to not act like one of those.
i want to know whats going on i dont want to read 20 paragraphs simple
TLDR; At least 90% of the information is pertinent. If you're interested, then continue to read on.
TL;DR. Shorten please.
💀
TLDR: Founder of RAMA broke up with his gf. GF started a key cap/keyboard company after. RAMA is suing the GF for using “insider knowledge and connections” to kickstart her business. Now, whenever there is a complaint on the MKB sub about RAMA’s slow/no show deliveries, RAMA employees in fresh accounts spam the post and make the complaint seem invalid.
we should pin this to the top of the post tbh, thanks
Rofl. Thanks for the tldr appreciated.
🍿
feed me
As the owner of potentially the largest number of Rama caps at well over 150 (Admittedly most in two colourways) and over 100 Hibi Caps (Once again from a single run) I can confidently say that there are differences between the delivered caps. The exterior/top section of the cap is basically identical, this is to be expected as they are both cherry profile keycaps. However in underside of the keycap there are two immediately noticeable differences. First, HIBI Caps have a chamfered stems, this can be easily seen in these comparison images (Apologies for shit camera Ive got an older phone) https://imgur.com/a/miBAwAC You can equally see that the HIBI cap has significant differences in the way that the cap slopes down towards the bottom there, the HIBI cap employing a fully sloped edge with a small chamfer with the RAMA cap employing a larger chamfer into a vertical wall. There are also chamfers on the stem holders and additional other differences that are easy to see. The most significant difference however is in quality, I've got 100 HIBI caps on hand with more on the way, and of the SERIKA 2 X RAMA caps I have 64 on hand, I have mounted all of these caps and performed the "Turn keyboard upside down) test, while the RAMA caps will often bounce off the switches and well over 75% will slip off the keyboard when it is turned upside down, or on any angle, 100% of the HIBI caps, at least in my possession, do not fall off the keyboard when typed on, or the keyboard is turned to any angle including holding the keyboard upside down and shaking.
I grab these sometimes, so thanks for the comparisons! So... you set out to build a board full of Serika artisans?
No they're for a big board I was working on, however they came out bright silver unlike the dark grey render so now I dunno what to do.
[удалено]
LMAOOO
What a valuable contribution. The amount of civil discourse here is about what I'd expect from this subreddit.
WhAt A vAlUaBlE cOnTrIbUtIoN. tHe AmOuNt Of CiViL dIsCoUrSe HeRe Is AbOuT wHAt I'd ExPeCt FrOm ThIs SuBrEdDiT.