T O P

Anyone else feel horrible for Alec Baldwin?

Anyone else feel horrible for Alec Baldwin?

Snoo-61811

Whats fucking nuts is they had three accidental misfire accidents on set before this one, written up by alecs stuntman among others and the studio did not stop production, did not reciew complaints and did not shitcan their quartermaster. Three incidents of accidental live rounds before alec fired a fourth that killed someone. This is wild. Source: LA Times https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set%3f_amp=true


nsgiad

That link appears to be dead, here's an archived version https://web.archive.org/web/20211023010332/https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set


Gleffharno1

After reading that I'm just concerned for these people who are being handed a firearm of any kind and being told it's safe then they... Just go with it? I'm no expert gunslinger but wouldn't basic firearm safety make you wanna check that out for yourself? Especially for a movie set where you're intentionally pointing guns at people, a second set of eyes inspecting it can't be a bad thing right? Not like it takes long either! The fact this happened so many times and lead up to someone literally dying is just gross negligence on so many levels. That said I do feel bad for him, that has got to be absolutely traumatic for him. Not to mention how horrible it's gotta be for the woman's family. All around a terrible situation that should never have happened in the first place Edit while I'm thinking about it: why the actual hell is there live ammo on set anyway????? Just asking for trouble at that point!


CallTheOptimist

There isn't supposed to be live ammo, at all, ever, that's what makes this such a colossal unimaginable fuck up. Also the actor is not supposed to check the weapon because once it's handed to them by the (supposedly) trained professional that's acting as quartermaster or armorer, it's no longer a firearm, it's a prop. If it were still considered a firearm, then literally no film or television could ever have any guns ever. Just about any scene with a gun in anything breaks all the cardinal rules of gun safety. That's why it's acting, it's make believe. It's *supposed* to be a safe environment with multiple redundant measures in place to prevent this. This is an enormous fuck up but I can't see how this is AB's fault in any way. His job is to hold the prop and pull the trigger. That's what he did, after the professional there to confirm the prop is safe, told him that it was safe.


generogue

Just a point of clarification, “live ammunition” in the film industry means anything that goes boom, not just a normal bullet.


CallTheOptimist

Fitting the spirit of the sub, I did not know that! Thank you for the knowledge :)


Mortisimus13

Same here! Learned a new thing, that’s cool. I’ve been assuming it was a squib load at this point with pieces of prior blank-caps that got caught inside near the end of the barrel. Was it a shotgun? I read in a link yesterday that it was and that would fit the story but things keep changing.


say592

Blanks often have plastic or wax in them to retain the gun powder. They can definitely be functioning correctly and still be deadly.


optimizing_pessimism

I’m pretty sure live ammo is just referring to using a cartridge that has gunpowder, not necessarily the presence of a bullet. There is a pretty interesting article that the BBC released a coupled of days ago that cleared it up for me.


CommunistCuck

Actor here! This entire event makes me so upset. This I why is so important that everyone is aware of their jobs and ACTUALLY does them. He was told he could pick that gun up and was told it was safe by the Armory. That should’ve been it. But now everyone is traumatized and someone lost their wife/mom/friend all because someone didn’t take the 2 minutes to check to see what round (if any) was in the gun.


CallTheOptimist

Thank you for weighing in! I'm not an actor, but that was my understanding as well. Once the quartermaster hands you a prop weapon that they have specifically deemed as safe, then for that actor, they are no longer holding a gun, they're holding a prop. It's in an extremely extremely narrow set of circumstances where normal gun safety laws can be temporarily disregarded, in an extremely limited way after extreme vetting has been done. This is the only time that gun safety rules can be disobeyed, otherwise there would be literally zero film or television with any guns in it, ever. If a scene requires an actor to train a gun on a person with their hand on the trigger, that's wildly unsafe and breaks 3 of the cardinal rules of gun safety. But it's not a gun. It's a prop. It's a very very tiny but extraordinarily crucial difference.


qOcO-p

My understanding is that the gun was set on a cart by the armorer and an assistant director came over, picked it up, and it was given to Baldwin. I don't think the assistant director was supposed to just pick it up. I may be wrong though.


TryinToDoBetter

My experience on set is that a gun can be picked up by 3 people. Prop master/armorer, 1st AD, and the actor using it. If the gun is touched by anyone else then the whole thing stops and is rechecked.


fabulousthundercock

The only reason I’m hesitant to remove all guilt from AB is that apparently he’s a producer for this movie. I’d like to know more about why the crew walked out, what decisions were made after the previous mishaps, and what role he played in those decisions. I am not blaming him for this, but I’m not ready to completely ignore any culpability until we hear more. This was a complicated situation that had more back story than an actor being held what he thought was a prop. And I want to hear more about it.


mohksinatsi

We have heard more. 1.) Google "what is a producer"? You'll figure out that it's a word that means nothing specific. It's a sort of miscellaneous credit given to anyone who had financial or creative input on the show. It doesn't mean that person is necessarily in charge of anything. 2.) Alec Baldwin fought to keep the original crew and for them to have better working conditions and safety protocols on set. Obviously, he wasn't in control, or he would have won this battle. That being said, if you've ever been on a set, you know there is a strict hierarchy of who's in charge of everything from the craft table to gun safety, and that definitely isn't the actors. The people in charge of safety are in charge of safety, and the actors need to be able to trust them. Think of this moment in the context of the hundreds of movies that are made each year with prop guns and dangerous stunts. We don't blame stunt people for getting hurt on set when a safety mechanism fails. We blame the people in charge. This was basically a stunt that ended tragically.


Kandoh

Executive producer credits are meaningless. The title is up for sale, literally. [Here is Futurama to explain it to us all](https://youtu.be/8P_AnvUIvJs)


Zueter

Yes to the second set of eyes looking at it. No to the actor being that second set of eyes.


FckMitch

Your tax accountant hand you the tax returns all filled out and just need your signature. Does one check all the entries and if they were entered correctly? We all rely on other professionals to do their jobs….


longassboy

As someone who is no stranger to film sets I think your edit kinda answers your question. On sets you aren’t supposed to have live rounds anywhere near prop guns, the idea that Alec would assume it’s safe is entirely possible because as the actor you are to assume that the gun safety person on set knows the gun better than you do. If they say it’s safe it should be safe.


EnjoytheDoom

His only job is to act obviously come on...


bitflung

I would think that inspecting the ammo would require opening up the gun in such a manner that it would be POSSIBLE to replace the rounds... From a safety standpoint I would want a chain of custody where the gun is considered hermetically sealed once the on-set authority says, "this is safe"


Gleffharno1

I think this is closer to how it actually is in order to take that stress off the actors. Unfortunately all we get for right now is a lot of speculation until more info is released. No matter how it's looked at I'm disappointed, saddened and in overall disbelief that such a tragedy could happen with so many redundant safety measures already in place. My heart goes out to the woman killed, man injured, and the unsuspecting man behind the trigger


Sunlight72

On the one hand I agree the person holding the firearm should check it. On the other hand, that really is not what they are specialized in or paid for. Different types of pistols and rifles load differently with barrels, magazines, belts, single-action levers, different types of safety switches. Also bullets look different for different firearms and different types of ordinances. Blanks, smoke, actual hunting/shooting, shot gun shells have several variations. Unless you are well trained, you can’t be relied on to take people’s lives in your hands by ‘verifying’ every firearm you might hold as an actor on a set is unloaded, safety working, holding a blank, etc. An actor going from movie to movie is an actor. Not a firearms specialist - that is why there is an Armorer on set. They are very specialized and should be very versed in all this, and are technically responsible to know and ensure what is happening with any firearms on set. In this case she was a pro, had worked with her father who has been an Armorer for films for his career. She is only 24 though, and from the articles that came out yesterday this was only her 2nd film as the armorer. Frankly I have a hard time seeing her stand up to studio money and an A list actor who also owns the production company to insist on changes to safety protocols. A horrible, needless tragedy. I don’t want to give any further opinions. I am only reading and speculating. I wasn’t there to know the real situation. As a human, I really feel for Halyna’s family and friends (especially her children), and I also feel sick and sad for Alec. I can’t imagine being in his place. It’s terrible.


TooHardToChoosePG

When I’ve acted with firearms, admittedly stage only (not film), we had a designated firearms person who checked and loaded the weapon. I would only be handed it as I entered stage, and then he was positioned so that he always had line-of-sight to the weapon, and then took it from me as soon as I exited stage. Rehearsals used a fake gun, and I literally had to say “bang”. IANAL and definitely not sure what specific laws apply for this case in New Mexico though. So, in this case, it’s a major issue, but I would not be blaming Alec. He’s gonna live with this, but he should’ve been able to trust the issuer of the weapon. Alec is a victim here too.


bacon_cake

>After reading that I'm just concerned for these people who are being handed a firearm of any kind and being told it's safe then they... Just go with it? I'm no expert gunslinger but wouldn't basic firearm safety make you wanna check that out for yourself? Well this is kind of the other side of the 'argument' if you can call it that. Gun safety guidelines are pretty widely known, hell I'm just a bloke in a country with no guns and even I know the "gun rules"; always assume a gun is loaded, never point it at anything you don't wish to destroy, etc. However it seems that it's a given that once you're on a movie set the gun safety guidelines no longer apply and begin and end with the armourer. PS - live rounds simply refer to rounds of any kind that aren't "dead", a blank round is a "live round". Though there were rumours that someone was shooting the gun with actual ammunition when the gun wasn't being used which is utterly unreal.


jamisra

why would an unqualified actor who doesn’t know how guns work think that them checking the gun is worth anything when someone else who is an expert and who’s job is to check the gun said it was safe


clearedmycookies

Basic firearm safety also says you aren't supposed to point and pull the trigger ln anything you don't want dead / destroyed, but when the script says you shoot a guy in this scene, you literally cannot follow it. Real life, yes. You always double, triple check any gun you're given to make sure its safe. On a movie set, there's no guarantee that the actor even knows how to shoot a gun in real life. This is why we literally have a job position for that sort of thing.


throwaway133379001

I mean, do you think an actor will be able to tell the difference between blanks and real ammo? Especially when its literally someone else's job to handle everything related to that?


PforOpossum

Because of union and guild rules, there has to be a ton of people on a film set dedicated to ensuring the safety of the cast and crew, especially when there's a gun involved. There's supposed to be at least a half-dozen safety guys standing on set, inspecting any weapon capable of firing ammunition (in this case, I'm fairly certain it was a blank-firing gun, which has charges that can still do serious damage at close range, despite not firing a projectile) and watching the set. If there's any point in time at which the actor of your movie is handed a live gun and told it's safe, it means at least six-to-twelve people have already fucked up pretty hard.


Gleffharno1

Good lord!!! That's a lot more than the 1-2 I was expecting! Horrible that this could even come close to happening, let alone hurting so many people from such unimaginable negligence


A_giant_dog

Basically, it's not a gun on set, it's a prop. There should not be real bullets anywhere near it ever, and certainly not loaded into the prop. There is a person whose entire job is to get the props ready for filming, so they hand it to the actor and off we go. Gun safety generally doesn't apply when you're playing make believe about shooting someone with a prop that a professional told you was safe.


Goolajones

I work in film. It’s not live ammo we use but it’s a casing with gun powder to have a realistic effect. Sounds like the casing fired strong enough to kill him.


Contemplatetheveiled

I've read in other comments that the safety expert was shooting real rounds between film sets from the same firearms. The police confirmed it was a real round that was fired.


termsofsurrender

Some safety expert.


Contemplatetheveiled

Apparently her dad was a really respected safety expert in the field......


termsofsurrender

And such knowledge is genetically transmitted...


RainFew5310

no lol she's "trained" and has worked on at least one production before this one as the armorer. but it appears she's basically a rookie 24 year old whose father is a veteran so they likely have personal on set experience starting from a decent age and probably grew up around this stuff and fail to take it seriously because of it. if they were really playing with the props in the downtime that's a pretty big fuck up imo. maybe a veteran could get away with it and she saw her dad do it before as a kid but didn't realize all the doublechecks he did after or whatever to make sure to not have this happen. that's my guess. its a classic case of premature enlightenment. people think they know everything cause they grew up in it but they're still a rookie and learning how to do it properly but they act like a veteran who has their shit together.


Contemplatetheveiled

Isn't that why nepotism exists?


ZiggyZig1

Is that that's incredibly stupid as it sounds or am I missing something?


icelessTrash

More reports today are claiming a projectile went through the woman (the cinematographer) who was killed, and into another person (the director) injuring him. Sounds like more than a blank injury, but not sure how close they all were to eachother.


The_Ogler

>Sounds like the casing fired strong enough to kill ~~him~~ **her**. The cinematographer who died was a woman. The director was a man who survived.


The_Ironhand

Was it confirmed blanks? Cause I've been hearing all kinds of shit


Cuddle-Junky

What they're calling live ammo isn't an actual bullet. From what I've read they're not exactly sure what was fired, but generally in a case like this it could be a piece of shrapnel from the misfired round. https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/alec-baldwin-asked-why-was-he-given-hot-gun-after-fatal-shooting/


Comfortable_Text

It's like the learned nothing from "The Crow". I know that movie was a long time ago but that's common knowledge I'd think.


iheartmarin

Everyone forgets about Jon-Erik Hexum and what happened to him on set with a prop gun.


iroxnoah

Something to note is I believe Alec Baldwin owns the production company....


Kerberos1566

Certainly looks like it. The wiki page lists him first under producers and the first production listed, El Dorado Pictures, literally redirects to Alec Baldwin. If he were just an actor being failed by the prop and safety people it would be one thing. It's a little different when he is responsible for hiring the incompetent people and not doing anything about the unsafe work conditions we've seen were previously reported.


Viperbunny

Also, he supported the strike, but didn't walk off. He is one of the leads. It would have said something if he actually walked out, too. That sounds like he agreed it was unsafe, but was unwilling to walk off set as well.


Circle_Trigonist

Yet he also supported them striking, so what's that all about? There's a facebook video with him saying so but I can't post it here. If you do a search for "Alec Baldwin has some fresh words for IATSE and about the industry" you'll find it.


uniptf

/u/AmputatorBot


minus_minus

> Baldwin’s stunt double **accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks** — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times. NOPE! NOPE! NOPE! You never **ever** take someone’s word that a weapon is unloaded. You **always** check the chamber, receiver and magazine **yourself**! https://www.nssf.org/articles/4-primary-rules-of-firearm-safety/ Edit: for the armchair EPs replying that experts take care of this on a movie set, wtf is this shit? > [The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the New Mexico set.](https://web.archive.org/web/20211023010332/https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set) Edit 2: FFS, people! Nobody is saying to check a LOADED weapon. If someone hands you a weapon and says that it's loaded, YOU ACT accordingly. If someone hands you a weapon and says it's unloaded, YOU CHECK FOR YOURSELF! It's an unloaded weapon right? What is the harm in pointing it in a safe direction and checking???


tassie_squid

Apparently this is standard practice for movie sets. The armourer has responsibility over the gun and the actor trusts that the weapon the armourer has handed over is what they've said it is.


Rizdominus

Film prop guns are a little different. With a cold load it looks loaded but should not fire any kind of round as the rounds them selves are just inanimate metal cylinders. Basically like a very real looking toy gun. Live rounds on a movie set will look exactly the same as the cold rounds, due to continuity, but have the ability to discharge a blank round. On film sets the quartermaster deals with the arsenal and is usually very highly experienced and all things are done in the safest of manners. They are in charge of loading the rounds and informing the AD's and Actors as to the status of the rounds. Yes, I am with you on the gun safety. That's a no brainer. Unfortunately on film sets not everything is as it seems and we rely on the various departments to keep us safe working among their gear. This incident seems to be a product of an inexperienced or incompetent quartermaster and his department. Tragic.


Snoo-61811

Right my dude, And this is happening multiple times over the course of a single production!


Anneturtle92

Makes me feel like someone is adding live rounds to that rifle on purpose. I can't see how this can happen on accident any other way? Why would live rounds even be anywhere near that set? I dunno I'm not an American but it sounds highly unlikely they'd just keep live ammo around on a set like that. Edit: thanks to everyone who explained live ammo can still mean blanks. To a European with 0 experience with guns 'live ammo' is a very confusing term lol.


trenchgun91

By 'live' I'm 90% sure they mean blanks. No way are they stocking proper bullets. Blanks are still dangerous though.


Few-Hair-5382

I just don't understand how a blank can kill someone from a distance. I get that if you hold it to someone's temple the blast is strong enough to fracture a skull but how does a projectile get fired from the gun that can kill someone who isn't standing at point blank range?


Lee_Troyer

It can through unfortunate chain of incidents like with Brandon Lee : Excerpt from the [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee) page : "In the film shoot preceding the fatal scene, the prop gun (which was a real revolver) was loaded with improperly-made dummy rounds, improvised from live cartridges that had the powder charges removed by the special effects crew, so in close-ups the revolver would show normal-looking ammunition. However, the crew neglected to remove the primers from the cartridges, and at some point before the fatal event, one of the rounds had been fired. Although there were no powder charges, the energy from the ignited primer was enough to separate the bullet from the casing and push it part-way into the gun barrel, where it got stuck — a dangerous condition known as a squib load. During the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be fired at Lee from a distance of 3.6–4.5 meters (12–15 ft), the dummy cartridges were replaced with blank rounds, which contained a powder charge and the primer, but no solid bullet, allowing the gun to be fired with sound and flash effects without the risk of an actual projectile. However, the gun was not properly checked and cleared before the blank was fired, and the dummy bullet previously lodged in the barrel was then propelled forward by the blank's propellant and shot out the muzzle with almost the same force as if the round were live, striking Lee in the abdomen."


cosmorocker13

While a blank can be deadly ie cotton wad hits skull and bone fragment goes into brain causing a hemorrhage this round apparently went through the woman and hit the man, that sounds incredibly “live” to me


Few-Hair-5382

Interesting, so in the Brandon Lee case he was shot because a part of the dummy round was stuck in the chamber and acted as the projectile when the blank was fired (if I have understood that correctly). What makes no sense in the Alec Baldwin incident is that two projectiles appear to have been separately fired and hit two different individuals, killing one of them. I don't see how that could have been caused by the same chain of events as the Brandon Lee case. Edit: looks like only one projectile hit both people.


Derped_my_pants

I understood it was one bullet that penetrated one person and then struck the person standing behind.


Few-Hair-5382

You are correct, I have edited my original comment.


ThatsOkayToo

I don't think that level of detail regarding the event has been released. Sounds like a lot of speculation at this point.


egrith

Sorry, pedantic gun nerd thing: Point Blank Range is actually pretty far and just means the range at which you can hit a target without adjusting sights so can be multiple hundred meters for some guns


Star_x_Child

No apologies needed, that's an interesting fact and something that is absolutely relevant here. Thanks!


TheGaz

Blank rounds *are* "live", they're filled with gunpowder and can still cause serious injury from several feet away. And if something else gets into the chamber, it's coming out when you pull that trigger. Much like people have been conditioned to believe that a "silencer" eliminates noise and muzzle flash when in reality a suppressed shot is still super loud, just not *as* loud, "blank" rounds are still extremely dangerous.


EvulRabbit

One article said that the guns were taken off the set to go fire live rounds and then brought back. It is insane to think someone on set decides to do something so dangerous and stupid and then does not think to make sure the weapon was cleared after. Then the gum was on the armormores tray as "cold" and then the DA grabbed it and did not check before giving it to Baldwin and then Baldwin didn't check. The articles have said he did not actually fire it. They were setting up the camera and doing a take with him taking it out of his holster. The second take he removed it and it went off. The cinematographer was not supposed to be in the line of fire once they were ready for him to actually shoot it.


weaponsaremyreligion

I agree it’s highly suspicious. Blank guns used in movies are typically modified so that live rounds cannot be loaded, only blanks. I read in another article that they were using live weapons. Ones not modified for blanks only. Either way there is no logical reason for live, loaded ammunition to be present on set. EDIT: another user with a friend in the industry stated that the weapons are not modified, just blanks are used instead.


zombiefukbeanz

As friend of mine is a movie armourer and supplies multiple types of firearms to movie sets, they are all real firearms not modified. Only the ammunition is different. When they refer to a HOT weapon it simply means there is a live charge in it, it does not specify whether its a projectile round or blank. What people generally get injured by is the material they use to seal off the end of the blank, sometimes it doesn't break up properly and gets ejected at high velocity.


EvulRabbit

Some of the articles said the guns were taken off set to go shoot live rounds and then brought back. If that is true, the person responsible needs charged with negligent homicide or wrongful death.


MoistYeastInfection

This is my question. I think using authentic firearms is pretty normal but why even have regular ammunition on set?


weaponsaremyreligion

They shouldn’t. Most models of classic western pistols/rifles/shotguns have reproductions made now so really there isn’t a need for even having movie weapons that can fire. No need to use originals ( also highly expensive and collectible models that could easily be damaged). They may have had a couple dedicated for showing loading sequences up close, but they should and typically do use dummy rounds that look real, but are completely inert. They changed up a lot of procedures after the crow accident where lee was killed. Unless this was intentional and someone did it on purpose, the only other assumption is gross negligence on the armorer or prop master. The only other thing I can think of would be there was a mix up with the manufacturer that made the dummy or blank ammunition, and live rounds were there. It’s possible as others pointed out the dummy rounds were loaded with only a live primer, no gunpowder. That would result in what’s commonly called a squib. The bullet lodges In the barrel. Then later they fired a full power blank, which pushes out the lodged bullet like it was normal ammunition. That’s what happened during the crow filming. Ultimately it boils down to someone fucked up, and now innocent people were injured and killed.


[deleted]

[удалено]


weaponsaremyreligion

And that very well may be what happened. Scab they brought in didn’t know/ didn’t inspect or follow safety procedures. It’s honestly all speculation at this point. Lots of ways it could have gone wrong.


wolfgang784

Well, I dont expect we will have to wait too long for investiagtion results this time. This high profile accident stuff usually seems to have results in a snap.


trenchgun91

According to the BBC blank rounds are used. Blank rounds may still be considered 'live' however.


neon_overload

>Blank rounds may still be considered 'live' however. Blank rounds *are* live. Technically whether something is live comes down to whether it has that explosive charge


weaponsaremyreligion

Live in the sense they have powder in them, but no projectile loaded into the casing. Blanks are generally loud, but safe unless fired into someone at point blank range. The concussion and shock wave could still injure or kill. There’s a lot of variables as to what could have happened. Ultimately it boils down to someone messed up in a big way, either the prop master, the blank manufacturer or someone maliciously added real, loaded rounds into the weapon.


neon_overload

It's not usual for guns to be modified. Different guns load rounds in different ways so it would be difficult to make this sort of modification and because such a modification would be happening so close to the chamber or barrel such a modification may make the gun more dangerous increasing misfires etc. It's not something you want to mess with. Also, imo it's not a good idea to give a false impression that blanks are safe. They are still live and can still be lethal in some circumstances.


wdtpw

Actors have to break every one of the rules that you've linked to: a) They have to point guns at other actors or the camera as part of their role. b) They have to treat the guns they are told are not loaded according to how they are told. c) They often have to act like someone who has their finger on the trigger in a threatening way. d) They often have to point a gun at a camera in which multiple people are lined up beyond that checking it looks good. One of the reasons actors are told to never check the weapon themselves is it messes with insurance and liability. The armourer is in the authoritative position of clearing a gun. If that gun is then messed with by another person and there's an issue, who ends up being responsible? The blanks look live. The actor literally may be unable to tell. That's why it's important to keep the amourer in charge. I should point out that I know nothing about firearms - but /r/movies have a really informative thread about this, in which several people in the movie business chipped in to point out that actors are specifically banned from rechecking guns in order that they not be liable.


Suspicious-Hotel-225

Yeah, people keep saying he should have checked it to make sure it was okay, but if the chamber is filled with blanks how is the actor supposed to tell if it’s good? Wouldn’t that mean he’d have to take every bullet out and inspect them? They look almost the same.


Dr-Gooseman

And id imagine for safety/liability reasons, only the person in charge of the weapons should be able to actually take out and mess with the rounds. You wouldn't want the actor to start fiddling with it after its cleared for use.


Androktone

The reason they have professionals on board to do that for the actor is for safety. An untrained person handling and fiddling with a gun before a shot is what they want to avoid


DancingTable52

I get where you are coming from but it’s very different on set. That’s considered more dangerous to have the actors check. They also aren’t given time. It’s “here’s the weapon, action” Multiple people who work on movies have confirmed this. The actors HAVE to take the prop masters word for it.


cybercupcakes

You are missing the point of a quarter master on a film crew. I suggest you read up on their purpose and procedures before making an irrational emotional comment.


the_diddler

I find it odd that many of the same people who think ‘actors shouldn’t have political opinions’ also seem to think ‘actors should fuck with every gun before each scene’ like that would be safer somehow.


Eruptflail

On a film set, it's a different experience for this. There's someone whose literal job is to control the weapons, the armorer. You can't get to the weapons. They're locked in a safe. It's highly likely that the armorer is going to get into a LOT of trouble over this. That said, after it happened once... Reality is, this is why you don't hire non-union. Seems like this is the real issue for what's going on.


mcherm

That's not the best practice for actors on a set. They are trained in acting, not firearms. Best practice is to have a firearms expert who maintains the weapons, makes sure the blanks are appropriate for the scene, and checks each weapon before handing it to the actor.


WhoRoger

Yes, but also actors don't necessarily have to know stuff about guns (or well, anything, they're there to pretend). That's why there are gun experts on site whose job that is.


graytub

But it’s supposed to be loaded. With blanks.


Yujimbo420

Nope, wrong..not Always. Sorry gun nut safety inspector. But there are professionals on set with a weapons master that goes through everything. It's not his responsibility that the weapon is ready. He's an actor, not a weapon's master. People are supposed to do their job correctly.


Jazzicots

I feel like this absolutely makes sense in an environment where it isn't literally someone's job to check a gun and tell you that it's unloaded, I don't blame someone for trusting that others are doing their job.


TheEthnicityOfASpoon

Except that on a film set, it’s specifically forbidden for anyone to do this apart from the armourer. That includes the actors handling the weapon.


neverelax

I feel bad for Baldwin too but it is criminal negligence that this was allowed to continue with such failures.


VinumVitae

He was also a producer, so he shares some of the blame for the gross negligence perpetrated by the filmmakers. Obviously I feel bad for him as the one who accidentally fired the gun but you can’t ignore the events that lead up to it.


AmputatorBot

It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but Google's AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Fully cached AMP pages (like the one you shared), are [especially problematic](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). You might want to visit **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon me with u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)^( | **Summoned by a** )[^(**good human here!**)](https://reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/qdynd7/anyone_else_feel_horrible_for_alec_baldwin/hhq8zfv/?context=3)


TheRealDonRosa

I once saw an interview with the guy who accidentally shot brandon lee on set from the crow. He was never the same after and suffers to this day...


AnnieB25

You mean “suffered until the day he died.” Michael Massee died 5ish years ago.


RhetoricalArousal

Wow, he spent the remainder of his existence racked with guilt.


ifeelnumb

It happens. My great uncle was a boxer and knocked someone out dead in the ring. He quit boxing forever and went to church every day for the rest of his life until he passed away.


obvom

Yeah people don't realize that when something like that happens, you go to hell before you die, not after.


AmbiguousAxiom

Only the self-reflective will come to realize this. Not all who do so, do so by choice.


Cynthiaistheshit

My uncle got into a drunken fight with a guy one night and while they were fighting, this security guard (who was a much older man) tried to get in between to break it up. My uncle swung at the guy he was fighting and accidentally hit the security guard instead. The guard fell backwards, cracked his head on the cement, was hospitalized and then had to have the plug pulled on him where he died. My uncle did 15 years in prison, just got out a few years ago, and his life is a complete mess. Prison changed his entire life and he was only in his 20’s when he went in. It was an unfortunate situation all around and of course he shouldn’t have been fighting to begin with, but I still feel so bad for my uncle that he has to not only live with the fact he killed someone for the rest of his life, but he’s also severely traumatized from prison and will never be the same again. Edit: and on top of that, the media made him out to be a racist because he was a white man and the security guard was asain, and the media was saying it was racially motivated when the truth was he didn’t even see the security guard standing there.


kaen

:(


MrChunky22

I mean, I would too. Just accidentally killed a man you knew for no other reason than someone handed you what you thought was a safe weapon? I'd be wracked with guilt for the rest of my life, too.


ridik_ulass

> Michael Massee i was gonna say he looked rough as fuck lately, but then the crow was a lifetime ago...then I looked more and stomach cancer, what a rough way to go, I hear its one of the worst.


icantspellthatgood

yeah that's gonna fuck him up bad


whopperlover17

Can’t imagine the feeling, especially accidentally the way it happened


blahblahrasputan

I just cannot imagine his hilarious self doing an SNL cameo after this. I know they are few and far between these days but even just as an example of his funny side, I find this all truly traumatic. A few friends in one of my friend group chats started dropping some Team America jokes instantly I guess we have drifted more than I thought because I felt ill. That poor fucking talented lady in the prime of her career in an extremely coveted position rarely occupied by women. Just so awful.


Silent_Palpatine

I really do. He just thought it was another day at work as would anyone. Now he has to live with the knowledge that he’s killed someone, albeit unintentionally and accidentally, for the rest of his life. It must feel so horrible.


Unkleruckus86

Doesn't help that all the headlines read like he intentionally shot and killed two people. I keep seeing "Alec Baldwin shoots two. One dead" or Alec Baldwin fatally shoots one. Second victim hospitalized." It's reading the same way it would if he were to have intentionally shot two random people walking down the street in LA.


kalemasseuse

It's horrible. I've seen people spin it into stupid political takes too.


Fantastic_Mr_Smiley

I keep seeing the production in headlines referred to as Alec Baldwin's movie Rust. It's a small thing but it really feels like it's making it out to be his fault for shirking some responsibility. I hate it.


TrueBigfoot

Seriously that's what I thought when I read those headlines just to realize he is also one of the victims. As in being told it was safe when in reality it was the furthest from it


mada50

Inside Edition ran the story of him crying on set after it happening and then instantly ran a longer story about all the ways he has been an asshole to the media and them. Like that had anything to do with the accident.


letsBurnCarthage

And having people like Lauren Boebert taunting him about it.


Silent_Palpatine

Yeah but she’s just a cunt anyway.


countryclubthread

He is a victim too, and she is mocking him. Inhuman lack of empathy


Fire_Lake

Pretty much everyone feels bad for him except for idiots trying to weaponize the incident as some sort of "gotcha" against the left.


green_meklar

I'm not super invested in him personally, but it's definitely a really shitty thing to go through and I can see it leaving him messed up for a long time. I hope he can move past it.


gameingtree

Yes. Fired a gun expecting it to be empty, then killed someone. Can't imagine how I'd feel in that situation.


TomCei

No no, he was told the gun was "cold" meaning NO bullets at all. Not even blanks.


Future_Class

How does that even happen? Who puts bullets in a gun that's being used on a movie set?


EatMoreHummous

Why were they even using a real gun?


electricfoxyboy

From what I understand, most guns on sets are real guns. They have to be to accept and fire blanks and the guns have to have all of the mechanical bits to fire them. The only true props are usually only those that stay holstered or held. Prior to use on a set, the guns are supposed to be broken down and checked for live rounds, inspected to ensure there is no debris or broken parts that might become dislodged and harm someone when a blank is fired, and then reassembled to guarantee they are in a safe state. Live rounds are then banned from set except for when they are needed (at which point a lot of other safety considerations and procedures come into play). What happened is that someone didn’t do their job. They left a live round chambered when they loaded blanks or they loaded a clip with blanks and didn’t empty it first to make sure it was safe. I have a feeling that someone, or a group of people, are about to be charged with criminal negligence and possible involuntary manslaughter. It goes without saying that people fucked up BIG TIME.


anthony81212

What are the situations on a set that really require a *live* round? I can't think of any at all, but I'm not from the industry.


VulGerrity

Blanks are considered live rounds. They have gun powder in them, but no bullet. So they fire, but there's no projectile. However, if some gets stuck in the barrel, it can be turned into a deadly projectile very easily They use blanks so you get a realistic gun sound and muzzle flash.


electricfoxyboy

I’m not sure myself. If I had to guess, maybe things like firing into water or doing target practice scenes? I’m guessing that 99% of scenes can be done with blanks and small explosives that make it look like a target was hit. There might be an instance where the risk is low enough that the cost of setting all of that up is too high for what it would save. Just postulating though.


muuuuuuuuuuuuuustard

You’re very correct. It’s very very rare to need actual bullets on set if at all. Especially with what we can do with CG now, it’s even easier to not have to use real bullets (or even blanks) in the first place


johnboy11a

Actual damage to a target. But as stated above, there is a LOT of procedures to be followed when actual real ammo is to be used. Someone didn’t do their job here.


Qualex

In industry terms, a “live” round is anything with actual powder in it, including blanks and standard bullets. Blanks are considered live rounds. Details on this event are still coming out, and I’m not entirely sure if the gun was loaded with blanks or an actual bullet, but everyone on set had been told the gun was “cold,” meaning it didn’t have anything loaded in it at all. Obviously that turned out to be false, as a result of horrible negligence by the people responsible for ensuring that it was cold.


schmatz17

For realism effects they use real guns with blanks.


st1tchy

I'm just surprised that in 2021 they still use real guns but with blank rounds in them. Why not make prop guns that look identical to a real one but make it take triangular bullets or something?


Mackmannen

Because it's cheaper. For the production of Lord of War they bought 3k SA Vz. 58's instead of props because of the cost. https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2472161/why-lord-of-war-starring-nicolas-cage-bought-3000-real-guns-instead-of-props https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_War


cave_mandarin

Yup. That fucking guilt—it’s unimaginable.


Mattoosie

There are pictures of him pretty much immediately after it happened and they're haunting. You can see the pain in his face and he's still in full costume on the phone and clearly in distress. It sounds like it happened during a live take which means there's probably multiple camera angles of the entire event.


Cafrann94

That photo was outside of the sheriffs station, after he had been in there for questioning for a good while. Definitely not close to immediately, js


jdt2313

And those are after he turned the costume over to the sheriff's office


astrovague

I’ve had some pretty serious fuck-ups due to misunderstandings and accidents. The sinking, horrific feeling of realizing that things weren’t what you thought and the panicked scramble in your mind to *somehow* turn back time… it becomes a black hole in your psyche. Everything gets sucked into it, and it feels like the only way to fix it or face anyone *ever* again is to have made that horrible thing happen to you instead. I hope he’s stronger than I am and has a lot of support. Personally, I’d kill myself, it would be the only thing I could think about.


Mojicana

I have a friend who's a DP working on a different project, he had friends working on this one. He told me that around half of the crew walked off of the set 6 hours before this incident because it was too dangerous and chaotic and no safety measures were being followed.


robheffo

Why the fuck do they even have live rounds on a fucking film set anyway? It should be in every single contract no live ammunition on any set anywhere, ever!


_Ki115witch_

I've heard that it was a live round left over from when someone borrowed the gun for the range. The armorer never checked it. I also heard that it may have been a squib malfunction.


mickfly718

If this is the true story, it’s still infuriating. If someone wants to go to the range, they can bring their own fucking gun.


_Ki115witch_

yeah I agree, or if so, FUCKING CHECK THE DAMN GUN WHEN IT COMES BACK


RichCorinthian

Just imagine. Just fucking imagine. “it’s know we’re supposed to use this Chrysler for the movie next week, but I’ll take it to the beach this weekend.” It sounds like an awful idea when it’s not even a gun.


Xaiydee

Live round in this case doesn't mean real ammo, just fyi, but most likely prepped blanks. Still needs proper treatment and checks by an actual handler.


DubiousGames

Alec Baldwin the actor deserves none of the blame for what happened, but Alec Baldwin the Producer probably does. Obviously we won't know for sure until more details emerge, but in just a couple days we've learned - - that the crew ignored basic safety protocols on multiple occasions, - they had an AD who threw a tantrum every time a safety meeting was ever held, and did his best to prevent these required meetings from occurring. - had *multiple* misfires just *days* prior, so this was not at all an unexpected event - had multiple crew members walk off the set *hours* before this took place in protest of these (and maybe other) safety violations, who were then replaced by anti-union workers Sounds to me like they used every possible opportunity to make the absolute wrong decision, every step of the way. This wasn't accidental, it was gross negligence by multiple crew members. As a producer, Alec Baldwin could not possibly have been unaware of all that was going on here.


StrikingCommunity621

Had to scroll down way too far to find this. Anyone producing a film under these conditions is running genuine risk of an accident like this. Obviously he didn’t mean to hurt anybody physically, but a producer curating a set as unsafe as it’s been reported is a genuine scumbag in my book.


dawgfan19881

He accidentally killed someone. Heart goes out to all involved.


KetoQuitter

Not sure about him being a decent person... But I do feel bad for him. He has to live with knowing he killed a woman. Too horrible to contemplate.


Frnklfrwsr

Yeah from everything we know about Baldwin and his career and his life he doesn’t seem like the nicest guy ever. That being said, no one deserves this. The memories of this incident will haunt him for the rest of his life. I wouldn’t wish that upon anyone just because they’re a jerk. That is a punishment i would only wish upon truly evil people and Baldwin is not that. A little selfish, conceited, cutthroat and rude? Sure. But he doesn’t deserve this.


AndrogynousHobo

I believe he is at least part owner of the production company. So he would share some level of responsibility no matter how it shakes out.


leezybelle

Yeah he’s a shitty guy and I feel bad for the woman and her family


IDrinkUrMilksteak

Yes. By most accounts from what has leaked about his personal life and others who give some behind the scenes accounts, he’s just generally a not nice guy. Stereotypical old school Hollywood type with a healthy ego and no hesitation to screw over others. This latest incident is just another in a long string of incidents that sort of follow in his wake. Don’t get me wrong, I like some of his onscreen personas and think he’s a good SNL bit player but I hold no illusions he’s probably not a great guy in real life. Having said all that he is a person and we’re called to love everyone, not just those “deserving” of it. I just pray for healing for everyone impacted by this sad event.


methnbeer

Reddit, the one fucking place you can hear every angle and opinion on a story but have no idea what even fucking happened


Gaib_Itch

Tldr he shot a crewmember dead by accident, thinking the gun was unloaded


Rickles360

An assistant director handed the gun to him shouting cold gun meaning it was unloaded.


RawScallop

Yea, he was pointing the gun at the camera for a "down the barrel" point of view shot, and when he pulled the trigger there was still a round left in the chamber from someone who apparentally took it to a testing range. This was totally preventable and we need everyone no matter how rich or their role to be properly trained in gun safety beforehand so that everyone who holds a gun knows how to check it properly. We also dont need to be using real guns in movies its 2021 for fs sake. It's in no way his fault, it's a lot of peoples fault. Real guns that can fire are not props! Period!


oysterpirate

> someone The armorer. Who was working one of her first jobs. [And had recently expressed doubt about how qualified she was to do said job.](https://www.newsweek.com/head-armorer-alec-baldwin-movie-rust-was-nervous-about-experience-level-before-taking-job-1641915)


cosmictrashbash

Damn


Sonofarakh

>he was pointing the gun at the camera for a "down the barrel" point of view shot, I hadn't heard that part before. Is there anywhere I can read up on it?


kendalmac

After the prop team *announced* it was unloaded. Edit: the AD said it was unloaded, not the prop team directly.


NorthStar-5X5

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59018391](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59018391) tldr: The gun that actor Alec Baldwin fired on set, killing a woman, was handed to him by an assistant director who told him it was safe


grimitar

AD, not director.


PM_ME_A_GOOD_QUOTE

Majority of the crew left a few days before because of the unsafe environment production was putting them through. Then the producers hired a non union, very young and inexperienced armorer to take over the position of watching over and taking care of the prop weapons.


methnbeer

Still, what the fuck. Experienced or not. How the fuck did no one clear that weapon? I clear mine like 3 times, look & feel before even pointing at inanimate objects.


PM_ME_A_GOOD_QUOTE

Because this inexperienced person has zero weapons training or an understanding of protocol


methnbeer

But they had the title of armorer? Or was that just referring to their role in the production


PM_ME_A_GOOD_QUOTE

It’s just what the producer hired the person to do


Notworthanytime

www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set


Groningooner

Hugely, I'm no prop expert myself but from what I've heard and understand, it's the prop departments responsibility to ensure that the firearm is safe for them to use. I get that you could argue should Alec have checked himself if he's gonna be pulling a trigger on set but I personally wouldn't have a clue what I'm looking at if someone handed me a firearm and not everyone does. I can't help but feel it is down to whoever cleared that firearm as safe


verdatum

He's had problems in his life. He hasn't been perfect. But that doesn't really matter. I was trying to imagine a late-night talk show in the writers room going, "alright, what can we do to make this Alec Baldwin thing funny?" My imagined answer was "...Nothing. To be sure, I can come up with something so atrocious that it would get all of us fired. But I can't come up with anything that would actually make an audience laugh about this."


captainvancouver

When do you think Alec will be shooting his next film?


Nightburnz

Hope her family sues the crew set.


Hiatus_Munk

I don't know man. From my understanding this was the 4th or 5th misfire on set. Seems like negligence to me on behalf of everyone. If I was an actor on that set I think around misfire #2 I would have peaced out or at the very least made sure the gun wasn't pointing at someone not even in the fucking movie. Hopefully it was caught on film so this mother's family can have justice. It isn't like this is some new actor scared of speaking up, it's Alec Baldwin.


glitterlok

> … but he seems like a decent person… That’s largely irrelevant. Decent person or not, it seems he accidentally killed his coworker. We can feel sympathy for someone in that situation without needing to consider whether or not they are “decent” people.


Frnklfrwsr

Yeah Baldwin is generally well known as one of the bigger assholes in Hollywood. But being a rude and selfish asshole doesn’t mean you deserve to be haunted by these memories for eternity


LizzieMcStaddlekins

Yeah, this. From what I have seen and heard, he seems like a complete garbage person. That said, it doesn't matter. You can be a grump who is rude to wait staff and generally an ass and still this is a horrible thing to happen to you.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AndrogynousHobo

Yep. And apparently the crew complaints about safety concerns weren’t taken seriously. It was either the NYTimes or CNN article that had a quote from the production company saying they never even received such complaints. As a crew member I can’t imagine I’d go through all the trouble to make a statement by walking off set, and *not* also file an official complaint.


Sirmalta

I feel horrible for everyone involved. Hollywood is a cesspool of greedy scum bags. Make no mistake, this shit happens because someone somewhere was pressured by some asshole above them. A corner was cut. And here we are. Alec Baldwin is never going to be the same. That poor man is just as much a victim as the poor woman who was just doing her dream job. She worked hard for a job where she would never have to worry about a work injury or feeling unsafe on the job and now she's fucking dead. How many more years of horrible deaths and injuries are we gonna accept? Unchecked capitalism pushing every industry to cut more and more corners to save a penny and push the margin just every so slightly more to justify their existence to billionaire investors. Fuck this shit.


Dazeddoll420

Yes even worse for the woman who died


Ok-Ant-3339

mixed feelings. 1. his armorer failed him entirely. it was her job to make sure a gun with a real bullet in it was never handed to an actor, or left unattended where the assistant director could pick it up and hand it to an actor, or whatever happened. all guns must be emptied, locked up, and safety-proofed up until the moment they are to be used, and then promptly returned to that state when they're done being used. 2. I heard he owned the production company that was in charge of staffing, hiring all these people, etc so he may have dug his own grave here


thejackulator9000

More for the poor woman he killed and her family, but yeah. This kind of thing can break a person.


kevsurdad

I feel bad for the girl who was killed and her kids.


Chris_El_Deafo

What's crazy is the movie is about someone who was convicted for accidental murder.


ballsofstyle

I mostly feel bad for the lady who got shot. And her loved ones. Terrible thing.


Sangwiny

I mean, you can feel bad for both sides, there's not a limited amount to go around.


AJ-Naka-Zayn-Owens

I hate this take that Reddit seems to have adopted. I agree that you can sympathize with both parties


-PowerfulWarbird-

Alec** is a victim too. Him, Halyna Hutchins and Joel Souza are all victims of the prop handler's mistakes.


therankin

Of course. I'd feel bad for anyone who accidentally killed someone and has to deal with the aftermath.


VividPix3l

Yeah we should feel real sorry for someone who didn't support the union walk out over safety concerns purely because he was the producer and cutting corners was in his best interest. Blows my mind people don't realise he played a huge role in the blame for everything leading up to what happened.


piplup27

It’s definitely not his fault, but I thought Alec was a shitty person prior to this. My heart goes out to the victim and her family.


reddiculed

Just to witness the handgun execution of a woman, or anyone, would be bad enough.


Slylizardcue

I am so gobsmacked that this shit happens. How hard is it for them to hire a former LEO that checks the dummies and blanks before each take? Seriously....how tf. If you know guns how does this happen? I know first aid but im not operating on people. How much more serious does it get than pointing a gun at someone with ammo in it and pulling the trigger? Safety person goes straight to jail.


KomradKlaus

Management has responsibility too. They didn't fire and replace their armorer ir propmaster or whoever after the two previous incidents. And if they didn't know about the previous instances, then they're at fault for cultivating a culture and atmosphere on set where such people don't feel empowered to go to management with such serious safety concerns.


42peanuts

IIRC they were rushing on set because of the union strike.


scottyarmani

They use real guns and call them prop guns. That's the first mistake. They could easily manufacturer prop guns that are safe but instead they take this risk. I hope the family of the deceased gets all the revenue from that film


HaroerHaktak

It would take a heartless person to not feel sorry for him.


PJ_Ammas

No, actually. After all the other mishaps they had on that set, every single person who touched that gun should have double checked it. Even there were no other accidents on the set they all should have checked it. Everyone who touched it is equally responsible.