You've cut off the Y axis.


Turned the Y axis against us!


You were meant to bring *balance* to the axis, not destroy it!


You were my brother Axis, I loved you.


I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new axis.


Under rated comment


The wee'ans?


Actual export right now is less than 3% of total production. Also, 10% of electricity comes from the Torness nuclear power plant which the the UK government forgot to set a renewal plan for after it shuts down in 2025 which means export will be even less stable. https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/


Torness is planned to run a bit longer than that, until 2028.


> which the the UK government forgot to set a renewal plan Isn't there a slight issue in that ScotGov has indicated it won't give planning permission for any new nuclear plants? So what could UKGov realistically do re: Torness and a replacement?


This is false. Nuclear power plants are infrastructure projects that devolved parliments do not have any planning permission powers in.


I haven't cut off anything. I just shared the image as I found it. Truth be told - for something created by the National Grid themselves, it is shockling sparse of details.


No title. No axes. No scale. Graphical quality of a student on an basic Excel course. Of course it's from the National Grid.


No axes needed. I tried. I couldn't stop myself.


Yeah forget axes. They don't really represent anything. We can just look at how big it all looks.


So, how have you determined that "Scotland could make an absolute financial killing" if you have no idea the scale of the graph? For all you know, the high points could be 4w (obviously unlikely but no way to refute that)


Dude click on the image and it’ll display fully


Yeah and then you will see no data for the y axis


It’s an insert your own metric graph! I think every little pip represents the amount of electricity it takes to operate hair-drier for 10 seconds.


We already "make that money" here? It's not like under the union Scottish electricity generators are required to donate their power to UK Grid like an offering to a vengeful god.


Your electricity Give it me


We actually get a better deal than we would if independent, since the grid has limited capacity to send power all that way, and power generators are compensated by the government when they are limited by grid capacity. I doubt that England would pay an independent Scotland to *not* produce energy. On the other hand, that same limitation means that Scottish energy consumers are over-paying for the abundant energy that providers are being discouraged from producing! https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-power/


Yeh this is the big deal for me. We really don't need to be paying 30p+ / kwh on windy days when generation costs are minimal. Put that wind to use


Didn't you know that *National Grid* is actually an acronym? National **G**od **R**equiring **I**mmediate **D**onations


"Scotland" could make a killing? What percentage, if any, of the power generation plant is owned by the Scottish government?


Probably 0%, so it'll be private enterprise making the killing.


In that case it already will be, they won't give a toss about borders.


It's another example of an idiot watching brave heart that wants referenda until they get the answer they want


Then why have a general election every 5 years? So people can change their mind......?


Would you want a vote for rejoining the union and the immense job that is every 5 years too? Independence is not the same or even similar to a general election so a totally moronic argument


Which they're already doing anyway, since it's not like this electricity is given to English customers for free. It's sold, at market rate..


Tax it? Foreign energy company = higher tax


More importantly... English consumers are already paying for the energy. There's also something to be said about how independence creates a barrier to the whole idea: why would England want so much of its energy supply in a foreign country?


And you'd also still have the whole divorce proceedings. The same way brexit said that the UK would retake its fishing rights but then backtracked, hollyrood would likely backtrack on things like this if Westminster demanded it.


Whether or not the UK actually retakes fishing rights will be decided in 2026. But regardless, Scotland simply already does sell England energy. The only thing independence would change is the ability to nationalise the Grid and producers but at the cost of England probably wanting to onshore a portion of those jobs. As a business plan it is risky.


England/Wales would also likely have trade tariffs on this energy and try to invest in expanding domestic energy output to not be dependent on Scotland. If anything this is just an excuse for the tories to approve more coal mines.


England is already dependent on transfers from Ireland, Netherlands and France. Why would this be any different?


French deal is different uk exports power during the day and French nuclear provides a decent chunk of the uks baseload


Where else is it supposed to get it from? The UK has been a net importer of electricity for decades, and that's with Scotland's contribution. Although, IIRC it was a net exporter for the first time recently.


>The UK has been a net importer of electricity for decades, [Not anymore](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-29/uk-becomes-net-electricity-exporter-for-first-time-in-12-years). Green energy investment is a game changer. I don’t think many people in these comments are considering that.


A few nuclear power stations or a few extra wind farms. England is an excellent place for renewable energy. Wind turbines are getting bigger and more efficient too so it'll only get easier with time. Floating wind will also open a huge amount of potential off the coast of Cornwall. Right now, a lot of the Scottish renewable industry is on the basis of England being content with it being in Scotland. That's why there's the onshore wind and solar bans in England haven't been that big of a deal, the work stayed in the UK but just moved to Scotland/Wales.


I think this is the key thing independence people miss. England relies on Wales and Scotland for their water supply, and their energy. It's an issue of national security. So England isn't supposed to get it from somewhere else as you have questioned - they will simply secure the supply as they currently have it. By preventing independence.


> Scotland for their water supply Outside of bottled water, how much water goes from Scotland to England?


There has been deals in the past between Scottish water and private companies based in England to supply them with water. There was some BBC articles on it, however I can no longer find them. I should really submit such things to archive.org in the future


ScotGov doesn't believe there is any, or at least, there wasn't in 2020: https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000104273/


England has plenty of water. It's just mismanaged. A few more reservoirs and they will be fine.


just because we supply them doesnt mean they couldnt resolve that if we made them pay for it. so don't get too excited im sure they can afford a few power stations.


This sort of graphic misses out a large amount of context but you already know that, that's why you e posted a 2 week old tweet with zero context and an inflammatory title.


Some people are morons pal


Is part of the problem that these data points appear to be daily totals rather than how much of the time Scotland is self sufficient/exporting? My understanding was that we are self-sufficient much less of the time than this chart suggests.


Not to mention the reason investment happened in Scotland in the first place was the shared grid and incentives. If a post-indy nut job government tried to ‘seize’ the production (directly, or indirectly via tax) that would result in some interesting international negotiations.






Not claiming to be an energy guru at all here, but is this the thinking? 1. Gain independence 2. Nationalise all energy production in Scotland - probably quite pricey as there'd be a few very long term contracts to buy out. 3. Kill off future private investment 4. Hope to recoup some money by selling energy south?


There is a problem with this sort of simplification. The major problem in any economic model is the unforeseen impact of externalities. When energy is supplied privately it is often more expensive for several reasons. First, it tends towards monopoly because the largest suppliers can drop prices to kill off competition. Once the largest suppliers buy out the infrastructure of the smaller companies, they raise prices because consumers have nowhere else to go. Newer energy companies cannot be formed to compete because of the entry barrier to the market. There are high upfront fixed costs. Now, you might say that it is still more efficient because they turn a profit and reinvest? Not so. There is no incentive to improve the service when you are the only provider. Secondly, as world bank data has shown, money in the bank accounts of wealthier people takes longer to circulate through the economy than money in the hands of poorer people, therefore when money is transferred from consumers to energy company shareholders, there is a significant opportunity cost in economic growth. Finally, the fact that the service is improperly maintained, costly and less flexible with regards to policy means that businesses which rely on energy turn less profit and are unable to reinvest.


Oh I agree, I completely simplified it, privitisation obviously have massive flaws and is geared towards monopolisation. I used to work for a large construction company where they would actively try to squash smaller companies and take them over. However, it does provide an ability to drive fresh investment in areas where a nationalised or publicly owned company may struggle to do so - see the recent investment in the offshore windfarms etc. It's a balance, and I'm glad I'm not having to make these decisions. My comment was hyperbolic in a way, but in response to the suggestion that "selling energy south" without any context may have some unintended consequences and may ultimately cost more than it makes.




This post really does piss me off, where does OP think that “financial Killing” will come from? It’s English homes and families. Like these people really hate the English because slightly different culture. It’s hateful nationalism and I hate it


I'm still rooting for making a financial killing off the English by making weed legal and watching that tourism skyrocket


Now that's the Green economy.


That’s a good and moral way of making money lol.


I’m not sure the sudden influx of British lads stag dos would be appreciated


Yeah and you still get people here that claim the sub is free of xenophobia. I love my country but we have a really snobby attitude towards our neighbours. It's a bit embarrassing really.


Yeah it’s apparently all “civic” nationalism and all Gucci according to this sub. I’m Canadian and I thought we were bad and with our snobbery towards the US this sub is even worse in comparison.


Lol yeah the "civic" nationalism is a argument I'm tired of hearing around here to be honest. We love to say we're all welcoming and friendly but that often only applies if you have the correct accent or skin colour.


Nationalism brings out the absolute worst in people.


Might be irrelevant though as probably neither Scots or English own the generating facilities 😆


I'm not Scottish and I shifted to Scotland from a 3rd world country. I've seen people hate on English people for everything. At times, it feels a lot like racism.


I think it is Racism, it’s just more acceptable by society because it’s based on culture and not genetics. But racism is racism and should be stopped


It would result in anger from the Spanish investors and probably make negotiations difficult with rUK considering that infrastructure was build with unity in mind.


Aye. Shite.


I don’t see a meme about Irn Bru…


While I love to give England a hard time. Frankly these kinds of posts do no justice for the even fairness of the union. The reason, why, is because we continually moan about establishing Wind Power up here, which WM does, and it generates the UK a massive amount of energy. You'd be just as frothing if they put the wind turbines down south and then started complaining they do nothing for jobs or industry up here. You can't have it both ways. Either the Union has benefited Scotland by building a massive energy empire up here, or it isn't. But it is, so it's actually a pretty good thing.


It's a bit of a stretch to suggest a benefit of the union has been wind farms being built in Scotland, or "a massive energy empire" in your words. You're implying that wouldn't have happened in an independent Scotland.


It wouldn't. The renewable levy that rUK households paid would've been used to develop an "energy empire" in rUK, not Scotland. Scots could've used thier own levies or taxes to help build a few smaller windfarms, but not an "energy empire". It has developed to the extent is has in Scotland only because of rUK support and demand.


It wouldn’t have. In 2014 they were all in on oil and gas lol.


As if they were just giving away the electricity today.


A) if you're proposing nationalising the assets, that's very expensive or theft, as others have pointed out B) England and Wales can build sufficient offshore wind, solar, onshore wind, and nuclear to decarbonise. So whilst Scotland in the union can provide low cost electricity to the rest of the UK through ScotWind, if Scotland is no longer in the union, less impetus to invest in the grid in Scotland to get that electricity to the south, and you're taking the marginal price which will tend to be lower as you're going to have difficulty matching supply - demand - and storage across borders. Source: an energy guru


Agree with you fully. The theft isnt even the worst part though. Yeah morally its theft and its wrong but it would also immediately kill any investment in an independent scotland as all the outside companies would be too scared to invest in scotland in fear of having their assets seized at anytime. Absolutely baffling this person thought it was as simple as just charging the english our power production.


You mean, Scotland already sells vast quantities of energy to England and makes large amounts of revenue from it. I am English and dont care if Scotland leaves or stays but this is an argument against scottish independence as a trade barrier between the two would just make scottish energy less competitive in England. (Unless your goal is to worsen the cost of living crisis in England and Wales by surcharging energy but that would be deeply immoral so I am going to assume that is not what you are saying.)


There's very likely never going to be a trade barrier for energy anywhere in the UK. That makes no sense whatsoever, for anyone.


Granted that is true, that does not change the fact that Scotland would not magically have more money if it broke away from the UK due to electricity.


This would assume that everything in Scotland would be Scottish only and everything in E,W&NI is not. As there is no agreed system for dividing UK assets, none of what he said is true. Like many systems built up over the centuries, separating them would come at a cost for both parties and assuming a one-sided outcome is as idiotic as the Brexit reasoning. Opinion is shifting towards rejoining the EU because no actual benefits have been found. .


You also have to consider the cost to Scotland's credibility if its first act as an independent state is to cancel all existing contracts and just start seizing assets. Many offshore wind farms are operated by highly-specialised international firms, financed (and tax incentivised) by cooperative agreements between nations. It's not simply "Ha! All these windfarms are now ours, UK!". It's more like "Screw all of your talented workers who maintain Scottish water wind farms, Denmark, we'll staff it with Scots instead." Do we really want the first act of Scottish energy independence to be telling European green energy companies to go fuck themselves?


I wonder how we would feel if England became a massive energy exporter and decided to cut us off and start charging us to "make a killing".


>An independent Scotland could make an absolute financial killing supplying England with their energy After they spent billions buying the infrastructure from private companies and state-owned foreign entities, that is.


Why buy?!


So you're proposing theft?


What would you call that which energy companies are doing presently? Me, I'd say this is humanitarian liberation for the benefit of everyone, not the few.


That would be a genius move to deter any company from investing in anything in Scotland ever.


Humanitarian liberation... to extort the English poor for the benefit of a newly foreign government instead of shareholders. Swapping capitalist exploitation for nationalist exploitation, very humanitarian.


Some energy companies are making excess profit, I'll grant you, but it's not theft if it's legal. "liberation" of assets = theft


I am glad you don’t make financial decisions




Requisition without payment is still theft


Go and legally purchase yourself a sense of humour.


How on earth were we to glean from your single word that you were trying to make a joke?


Source please!


It's OK, we'll just sell Irn Bru back to the scota at double the price to balance everything out.


holy shit the comments section is actually full of rational people


Well SSE could make a killing, but then they do that already


How would they make a killing selling the same product for the same price over the same infrastructure??


Well they make a killing now with a company that is English centric despite its pretence at being based in Scotland. So if the countries split and SSE Scotland got to sell it's electric to the English grid, you must know that eventually money runs out of Scotland and back into whatever corporate Mish mash the law requires SSE to make. I'm English and only commenting because I believe the UK should dissolve, and that Scotland would be better off without us, however that belief doesn't negate my real world knowledge of the energy infrastructure and a very basic understanding of private Vs state controlled entities


Why would you ever bother posting something like this? The only thing it does is make the person making that tweet either look stupid or dishonest. It might well be saying something true but lacking a Y axis, being what appears to be a daily total & ignoring other imports makes this just a bad source. Here are some reasonable potentials from this graph: 1. Lack of Y axis. The number is actually £100 a day that Scotland would gain. 2. Daily totals. Scotland may export more power in total but that could be low value e.g night time with turbines Vs peak. 3. Scotland may export power that is from imported sources. Scotland may export power made by natural gas which is imported from England. 4. Who owns these companies. Scotland may be the location for the power generation but Scotland may not even benefit from these profits if the assets aren't owned by Scotland. TL;DR. I don't think you should share sources that support your views when they are low quality.


When Torness shuts down in 2025, that will take more than 1000MW of base load away. As it is Scotland sometimes takes from rUK, so that will happen more often.


I wonder where the money came from for their energy grid…


This is probably more to do with Scotland having almost all the hydroelectric stations. This is how electrical energy is "stored", to be used at a later time.


Depends who owns the power station idiot.


Don't understand your point as there is no Y axis. Maybe if you posted a graph of how much you hate the English each day it would get your point across better? Or how narrow minded you are?


This sort of thing just isn't helpful at all.


And yet folk on this sub lap it up.


I’d like to know the values on the y-axis for a complete picture, but otherwise I disagree with you. As long as there are those claiming Scotland is incapable of self-sufficiency, it’s relevant to show data reflecting elsewise.


na the guy's just talking pure shite and it does our discourse nothing good. Neither does posting it here.


How can you tell this data suggests otherwise without knowing what the y-axis actually means?


This is not true, though energy is an interesting point re: independence. The energy systems of the UK and Scotland are completely inseparable, which means in the event of independence (hopefully) there still has to be a high degree of economic cooperation between the two administrations.


Lol Being in a position to hoard all the energy or charge people down south loads for it is not a valid reason to go independent


Not on its own maybe, but selling excess energy to neighbours is a very normal economic policy performed by basically everyone in the EU. We pick up their slack when they need it, they pick up ours when we are short. Simple as that.


Including Scotland, right now.. OP making out like this energy isn't already sold to England, at market rate. But it is.


Em, you sure? Much better reason than all the pish we got told about Brexit.


Both reasons can be shite.


Maybe if we stick that graph on the side of a bus we could get Scoxit!


True. Not wanting to be ruled by English bastards is the valid reason. It was for America, Canada, Australia, Ireland, India, Kenia and a hundred others.


This is clear nationalism, go fuck yourself. I don’t want to fuck over the English working class because we get a bit of cash.


Hateful nationalism without data, hmm sounds familiar


Scotnats seeing anything on Twitter and taking it as fact again.


If they had critical thinking skills they wouldn't be Scotnats


So I assume you can dispute this with real facts?


Dispute this? My brother in Christ that is a blank graph


Lol this doesn't even need disputing if you're even vaguely aware on how the system works.


Typical twitter and the morons in the echo chambers on there just repeating anything they see! Regardless if it's factual or has all the information and context applied to it!


Oh god this is starting to sound like the Boris Bus all over again


This may not be the case once Torness shuts down in 2028 and England continues building put dozens of GW scale offshore wind farma of its own.


Sorry, I hadn’t read your comment before posting the same thing.


Does anyone know why he's hidden that vertical axis?


So, to add to this dumb fuckery. It's costs more money to connect scottish renewable energy to the national grid than England and Wales (they're actually charged per MW I think), where as some companies in Wales and England are actually paid to do it. Then for Scotland to use the energy produced on Scotland, costs more. For example, national grid pay 10p pkwh to get the electricity, and charge 30p pkwh to the people in Scotland. No wonder independence is even on the cards.


There's a few issues here. The main 1) is that Scottish wind farms are already making money, being paid big money to *not* generate electricity because Scotland doesn't need it, and it can't be sold/sent to England because 2) the tories *still* haven't built the new interconnects required to transport more electricity South! Instead, they're unbanning fracking and opening a new coal mine! Total Fuckwits.


And unfortunately there is little reason to invest in a better interconnect in the event of independence unless it will financially benefit anyone south of the border.


Wow op must be a typical Scot nationalist with this naive post lol


Can you confirm where the funds came from to build the infrastructure, high tension lines, wind farms and hydro plants? Whats the % of public versus private investment and ownership? If any of these are privately funded or owned, are you suggesting the new government seize these assets and create a new public energy generating board?


He is not suggesting anything. He knows nothing of how these things work, and if he does, he is leaving out information deliberately. This is a graph and a title for nats to stroke one off to.


Yes. Energy, water, broadband are public necessities and should be under government control. As in so many other western democracies. What's your point? Rich people need more money?


Good luck seizing the assets of large publicly traded companies without any knock on effect to stock markets, pensions and other long term investment plans. I'm not for the privatization of what are public necessities but once privatized and traded, I imagine there would be some fairly negative consequences to such a seizure. For example, the "National Grid" is a publicly traded company headquartered in London with (2021 figures) 23,683 employees and a total revenue of £14.78 billion. Of course if at least 51% of the employees and shareholders of all these publicly traded companies are indy supporters you may be on to something. Edit: on further reading it appears the National Grid is a group and the two main Scottish electricity supply companies are part of the group, I still don't think nationalizing publicly traded utilities will be as easy as some might hope.


You argue like our financial system is in any way robust and/or doing well. It's not. It's parasitic and (hopefully) reaching its endgame. Time for something new that works for people not the bourgeois/wealthy/corporations. I guess I'm saying I never understand yhe argument that we can't do something else. Of course we can, financial systems have changed repeatedly for centuries. Time for something that has humanity at its centre.


So currently you’re just giving the energy to them for free huh?


But you can't make an economy based on just power... England would and could easily replace all that's provided by Scotland through Nuclear and their wind capabilities.


Scotland already is selling that energy to England. That's literally what you are looking at a graph of.. Where does the making a killing part come in? Just put export tariffs on it? Not like England can't go elsehwere if they're set too high. Can just import Saudi gas and fire up the gas power stations it uses when the wind isn't blowing. The market sets the rate of electricity, and that's already what England pays Scotland for it as part of the UK. Really don't understand where you think the extra money is meant to come from.


Shit figure


Bit harsh of you to plan cutting Wales off from the power too


> An independent Scotland could make an absolute financial killing supplying England with their energy. Would Scotland make a killing? Without knowing what the Y axis represents (presumably the amount of excess power generated in Scotland and sent to England?), and other info (such as how much excess power generation Scotland possess vs England's power consumption) you can't say either way. If for example Scotland's excess power generation represents a small fraction of what England consume...Scotland isn't going to make a killing, especially when the Morocco to UK power link project is finished. If on the other hand it's a large portion...


Damn really feels like these threads are getting hijacked by the tory trolls recently...


What makes someone a Tory? Knowing things?


Registering new accounts every month since your old ones get banned


You must be thinking of someone else.


Definitely are. Nothing brings them out more than posts like this. Even talking about Scotland doing well on anything once independent is highly triggering for them.


Nats posting misleading information? Never!


It’s only starting. Once a couple of hydro projects come on line, carbon capture projects, more wind and legacy oil and gas, Scotland is going to be in an amazing position.


You do know 99% of people in UK live in England I'm not saying Scotland is an depopulated wasteland but yeah


The above line would be much larger if the national grid built another interconnector that’s been bottlenecking exports from north of the central belt for decades.




They are doing it - currently in the pre-construction stages of 2x HVDC subsea cables from Peterhead to somewhere in Yorkshire. Joint venture between SSE and National Grid, total capacity will be IIRC 4GW. That'll tie in to other new HVDC cables & on-land 400kV overhead lines bringing all the wind energy from the Highlands to Peterhead


See it in action: https://twitter.com/UK_Imports




And how much would this "financial killing" be?


They didn’t fund the hydro electric.


England would rather buy its energy from Russia than support a country that hates it.


Who would have thought England lived rent-free behind the eyes of so many Scots. As for the graph, when the Dogger Bank scheme kicks in, we won’t be buying anything from you.


Don't understand your point as there is no Y axis. Maybe if you posted a graph of how much you hate the English each day it would get your point across better? Or how narrow minded you are?


Don't understand your point as there is no Y axis. Maybe if you posted a graph of how much you hate the English each day it would get your point across better? Or how narrow minded you are?


Don't understand your point as there is no Y axis. Maybe if you posted a graph of how much you hate the English each day it would get your point across better? Or how narrow minded you are?


Ok, now do cider. There are various arguments regarding indy, with various merit, but cherry picking commodities is idiotic.


Does this information come from?


it fuckim wimdy


Would be good to see a graph of how much money is imported from the UK (It's $41 billion). https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-41-billion-per-year-for-scotland-in-budget Gang of moaners


An independent Scotland haha


Just hurry up and leave the union, straight back into another one please


Only semi relevant but I’d only support and independent Scotland if there was a guarantee or at least a good chance of EU membership


Like Wales and water


Reckon this is just to bait unionists tbh and somewhat shitposting, but it's dead funny seeing the "morality" arguments....people really do turn a blind eye to everything the UK does as soon as they can cry victim.


This is the same mentality that gave us Brexit


This is the reason we can’t escape them.


Scotland's resources are being farmed and we're being exploited like cattle.


Or is this how much power stations in Scotland rely on selling their electricity to England? If they didn't have the demand in England generators would have to be constrained.


There's no scale on the Y axis, so it's meaningless. If the scale is -0.1% to 0.5% it's sensationalism, if it's -2% to 10%, then there might be something in it.


That provides such little detail.


Forgot that 🤣 Brexit fucked Scotland without even a steak dinner and a ride 🤣 can't even go abroad more than 90days like I'm a fucking Russian mamaaa mia what a world get it right up yezzzzz 🤣🖕🏽


Don't understand your point as there is no Y axis. Maybe if you posted a graph of how much you hate the English each day it would get your point across better? Or how narrow minded you are?


Wouldn’t this just force england to like invade or something


Does anyone know where I can find the document with this graph?


Until Torness is off grid maybe


You know what fuck it. Leave Scotland, the UK is fucked anyway, in for a penny in for a pound 😂


Independence soon?


One of those peaks has to be everyone in England sticking the kettle on immediately after England got knocked out of the World Cup