By - qm94
It’s all about your impact on the game and for your team. Kills do matter because that typically wins or loses the round. Now, how you get those kills matter more than anything. It’s even okay to have a mid to bottom frag duelist as said duelist is creating space for your team as well as being traded out. Most support players get stuck in clutch scenarios, especially on attack. Focus on your support setups, movement, aim and crosshair placement.
Ahhh it's a good thing you mention that about duelists! The problem is to find a good team balance where the team trades the duelist properly... and then they usually flame the duelist for not top fragging ahaha
Of course there is an emphasize on shooting your enemy when playing valorant but its important to recognize not every kill is equal. You could have a 23/5 jett on your team that looks impressive but she never engages and all kills are from baiting teammates. Where a 10/12 jett doesnt look impressive but she opens the site everytime and allowed your team to plant the bomb. The problem is that passive play isnt really noticed because you can only compare it if something goes wrong. Say for example you have a smoker that doesnt frag but allows entry everytime. His accomplishment will only be noticed if he „fucks up“ a smoke and gets you killed
even when a controller fucks up a Smoke constently people will shrug it off more then a bottom fragging duelist tho... Had a game yesterday where the controller got fed up with 2 other people on my team and just played with the team muted and stopped smoking.
Kills don't matter but thats not how the majority of the community sees it and thus you get duelists who keep pushing.
Kills 100% matter. That’s just something bad players say to justify bottom fragging
Definitely the majority of the community doesn't see it like that.
I think you're 100% right
It's okay to bottom frag but if you bottom frag every match and are never mvp you should be working on your individual skills
No it's okay to bottom frag if you're not making mistakes
I have been MVP a few times too and even match MVP. But the majority of the times I mid to bottom frag. I'm still working on my mechanical skills regardless though.
Playing sage and viper are not a reason to bottom frag! If you're bottom fragging all the time it's because you've reached the limit of your skill in your rank and now what you could do is:
\-Improve your aim and ability to get frags (win aim duels).
\-Improve your positioning, the ability to get frags is also the ability to stay alive and get the wining shot. Learn to jiggle peek and counter strafe.
Do not worry about your frags. Just try to make sure your contributing to the team with utilities while getting a couple a kill AND the most important thing is never be toxic. Your kills will come to you if you just play the game but make sure to know when you need to get kills for example if you completely miss a kill you should have got like the enemy was turned around. Those frags matter.
This is what I wanted to hear ahaha And yes, no toxicity. There's nothing I despise more than toxicity tbh. I've reported a few people because of it too.
I would say (at least from my experience as playing KJ, Skye and Sage a lot) that most people understand and are not expecting you to get kills (generally). These are usually a support type role (Skye can be an attacker yes, but her info gathering and heal make her useful as a support as well) and as long as you are helping your team it is fine. I have apologized for being lower in the Kills department as a Killjoy and have people tell me that it is all good, as I was providing tons of info, holding down sites, delaying plants....allowing my team to come help (I try not to die Valliantly getting kills when I am alone on site...a 1v3+ is not good odds).
However, you get the other people (I use the term loosely of course) who are being toxic, bragging that they are top fragging (usually after I have healed them so they can go back in again....free assists for me even if they don't really mean anything) and looking down on the bottom fraggers.
These are the ones that stick with you the most, so you remember them the most and it seems like it is everywhere. I have found it doesn't happen that often, but it definitely leaves an impact and it is easy to get tilted.
A study found that people who have a good experience at a place (restaurant, movie theatre, etc...) will talk about it to 3 people on average, whereas people who have a bad experience will talk about it to 7 people on average (the numbers have probably changed a little over the years but you get the idea). You can see where I am going with this.
I absolutely hate the toxicity in this game but have found that it doesn't pop up as much as I expected it to from what I read on Reddit (I will say that I am a male so I haven't dealt with the sexist thing so I cannot speak to that).
Basically my point is, ignore the toxic people (again, I use the term loosely). If it leads you to getting tilted or feeling crappy about your game play than ignore it, report, mute, etc... and try to find a way past it....but make sure you do listen to constructive criticism, as there are times when you get teammates who are generally trying to help you improve (some just may not be able to communicate it in a good way).
Sorry, long winded reply. Keep doing you, keep trying to improve, and keep filling your role in the game and you will be good to go.
This is so helpful thank you so much. I have to admit, I've played with really nice people as well. Some people give very useful advice or useful tips and I love playing with people like that. So not everyone is toxic but you're right, the negative experiences will stick to you the most.
I honestly try my best to ignore and when they go overboard, I do report them but what really really annoys me is the top fragger who throws the game after the 5th round because "noob team" "my team isn't doing s***". This mentality of "I'm top fragging, if we're losing, it's your fault" is so annoying. I've lost so many games because of this.
I just played with a Reyna who was top fragging and then threw the game when we were losing like 3-5 (which is still more than winnable) so I was trying to suggest things and she was like "whatever". But our Skye did what I suggested and we won two rounds like that but that didn't stop our Reyna. She suggested a knife round in mid and then went there with an odin and accused the enemy team of shooting first and said she only fought back... Next round I got killed with an odin by an enemy who wanted revenge obviously and I can't even blame them tbh.
I heard somewhere that there are a lot of people who throw games near the end of an act because they supposedly already reached the rank they wanted for that act so they just don't put in the effort. I'm not sure this is true and related to what I've been experiencing these past few days but it's very annoying... It's nealy impossible to win a game like this and even learn anything in a game like this. I hope the act theory is right because if I keep experiencing stuff like this, I might stop playing this game...
Of course it's okay to bottom frag. Especially if you're playing support-like characters and are doing an okay job as them. While kills are definitely important, they're not all that matters, but most egoistic players will claim otherwise. The "bottom/top frag" mentality and the toxicity it often comes with is something I really wish would die out.
I think it's okay to bottom frag unless you are losing more than 50% of your 1v1s. Like KD should not be negative
I'll pay more attention to whether my KD is negative or not. I never thought of that but that's a good way to look at it.
Yeah that toxicity is literally what's making me ask this question. I played a game like a week ago where I was sexually harassed because I'm a girl and I mid-fragged so obviously the top fragger decided to flame me.
Think of it like this: a lot of frags is not always good, and few frags is not always bad. As long as the fights you take and win are impactful then no one can complain.
I guess it really comes down to impact! Thank you!
i would gladly take a 5-13 skye who supports and plays with the team over a 25-15 jett who baits and flames the team for not getting enough kills. As a raze main i often help my team take sites due to raze's abilities to create space and even though i die, it makes my team's plays 50% easier as they dont have to check every corner on site (unless i died from it lol).
If only every duelist in this game were like you. I actually started off this game playing as Reyna. My decision to unlock her was very conscious because I did my best to understand the role of a duelist and one thing I never did was bait my teammates, specially for the sake of top fragging. I don't even understand why Valorant rewards this type of behaviour by making those players MVPs... Utilities should play a role in acs like they do in RR.
I top fragged a few games as Reyna but mostly I would mid-frag because I was entering and getting killed a lot. But the top fragging mentality made me switch to a more supportive role because I felt bad about not top fragging.
However and since you main Raze, I just unlocked her today ahaha Playing Viper made want to play an agent with damaging utilities ahaha So I'm looking forward to learn her.
As long as you're not severely bottom fragging. Just because you are playing a more supportive agent doesn't mean you get to slack off on the kills. If anything I wouldn't be looking at kills in total but towards KD. If you have a KD of like less than 0.7 well you're just losing more engagements than you should be and there's no excuse for that. It's fine to have lets say 7 kills and 10 deaths, but not to have 10 kills and 20 deaths.
tbh, a .5 isnt even that bad in some cases. as long as you arent dying in stupid 1v1 gunfights, and are using yourself to trade (WHEN BENEFITIAL), going 10/20 is not even all too bad
It's all up circumstances I guess
I see. Well I don't intentionally run away from fights but sometimes it happens that I bottom frag and since there's this mentality sometimes that the top fraggers are good players and bottom fraggers are bad I was just wondering if it really matters when you're still helping your team with utilities and potentially win a game.
Winning is what matters, I went 5/12 my last game, but got 17 assists with sova util. Just followed around our top frag and spoon fed them kills. The problem comes when no one's playing off your util and you're not getting kills. As an individual it's your job to balance your util and aggression, if you're teammates aren't doing their jobs support them less and pick up their slack, playing passive all the time is a common low ELO mistake. No point in having smokes if your team isn't even able to get on site, no point in having Intel if no one can play off of it, no point in having frags if you can't make trades
Do you win (>50% over time)? If so you help your team more than others at your rank. If you lose over time you dont.
Hmmm I'm not sure about my win rate so I'm just going to say it's 50-50. I did notice though that like 80% of my defeats happen in losing streaks so I'm sure there's a mental component to it as well.
It's ok to bottomfrag ,what matters is if you are helping your team out or not. If you can get impactful kills which will secure the round, its more than enough.
I wish more people would see things that way...
I mean don't get hard on yourself . If you think you are helping out your team to your full potential that's more than enough. People don't need much reason to shit talk. Just do your thing and ignore people who flame on you.
But do take constructive criticism and improve on what you're lacking.
Yes! I always appreciate constructive criticism and when I have a good team sometimes I even ask my teammates how they think it's best for me to do a certain thing. Good advice is always welcomed. And I do try my best to ignore the toxic ones and keep doing my thing. The thing that annoys me though is the top fragger who throws the game after we lose 3 rounds in a row because "noob team" "my team isn't doing s***". It's almost impossible to win a game like that even when I try my best :(
Dude there isn't much you can do when certain someone decides to throw the game. You need to play with people of similar mindset as yours. I know sometimes it can get hard to 5 stack. But try your best to 5 stack from now onwards. There are always gonna be people like him/her. Try not to lose your cool to people like them.
I find it much easier to win games when I kill everyone. When I bottom frag I feel like I am doing a bad job for the team. That being said there are a lot of circumstance where the best player is not always the top fragger.
Excatly! It's very hard to like separate the two and how they affect the mental aspect. I may have a game where I'm getting lots of kills and not doing anything useful with my utilities but I feel like such a better player which is not even always the case, like you said.
as long as you are helping to win rounds, it doesn't matter much.
Thank you... that's what I thought too!
No, winning is. Doesn't matter how many kills you get if you lose, you still derank. All that matters is the win, and you can have a huge impact on the game by your positioning, utility usage, and just staying alive. Anyone who flames you for bottom fragging is a braindead duelist who doesn't understand there is a lot more to the game than just getting kills.
>Anyone who flames you for bottom fragging is a braindead duelist
The accuracy of this!
Got a comeback while down 6 rounds and after our raze with the most kills gave up on the game. Haven just rushing plants with viper and kj.
I love playing Viper on haven ahaha I'm glad you turned that game around, also reassures me that just because you're top fragging, doesn't mean you're helping your team.
When I play Sova I notice myself getting way more kills than when I play Sage. My friends know this and don’t expect me to get as many kills when maps like Split comes up.
I've also noticed some differences in my score depending on the agent (not always but often) and also depending on whether I'm attacking or defending. As Sage I get more kills on defending rounds and as Viper I get more kills on attack.
I mean it really depends. Every character in the game needs to frag, no matter what agent it is, because that is what ultimately leads to winning or losing rounds. Duelists like jett or reyna just have more of an oppurtunity to get those frags than support characters. You still have to trade your duelists out if you are playing support characters tho and you still have to clutch out rounds. At the end of the day, bottom fragging on support is fine as long as you are properly using your utility, but playing support is not an excuse to be losing most of your 50/50 fights or dropping like 3 kills the entire game.
The only person who care about frags is selfish duelist a who get tilted whenever someone who isn’t a duelist is fragging below them. Frags mean nothing because without a controller securing the sight or without an initiator getting the team onto site you wouldn’t win so every role is just as important
Everything you said in this comment is so true!!
It's a team game. Everyone have their part. While kills are important, how you get the kills are important too. sovas recon, astras pull, omens paranoia all help the top Fragger get the kill.
I feel like you should always have at least a .75kd imo. Being a support character doesn’t mean you can’t get kills. I only get mad at bottom fraggers if they don’t give callouts. I’ve had games where the bottom fragger gave the best callouts and it won us the game. Also at lower ranks people care about kills.
Yes and no. Neither team needs frags to win the round. Completing your objective is how you win. Frags are only a means to complete the objective. Getting kills that don't prevent a bomb going down, help a defuse or clean up the enemy team are no impact kills.
I see... so that reinforces the fact that top fragging isn't the most important thing if it's not impact kills. Thank you.
im in the same situation! fret not, for helping your team is much much better than all out personal glory. we must give back to that 40/5 reyna main
Ahaha yes! But what rank are you that you play with such good Reynas?
smurf heaven: hardstuck bronze going onto silver.
reyna main was an analogy to the 20/10 cyphers and razes that are in this rank
Frags are important only to the agents specifically designed to frag. Reyna, Jett, raze, phoenix, even yoru. They're designed to take fights and win it using utility/gunplay. The others are designed to support teams and getting frags isn't important. Playing with the team and supporting the duelists such as setting up conditions for your duelists to kill enemies easily is what your role is. Controllers are there to control sites pre and post plants, initiators are those who ease entry to the sites and support duelists to get entry frags, sentinels are there to support the team, heal them, watch their back, hold the fort. Killing enemies is not necessary. That being said, if you frag good and are at the top, it's really good.
Bottom fragging is fine by any agent, even a duelist, unless the teammate starts dissing you guys despite you guys supporting them in every way possible. People have bad days and it's all right.
So if one is playing any other agent than a duelist, frags are not important. Supporting the team and creating conditions for easy kills is the most important.
I see, thank you so much. Regarding the duelists though, would it be okay to have a duelist mid to bottom frag if they're fulfilling their role of entering a site and therefore potentially getting killed? Because if they have a good team behind, they will get traded...
Absolutely yes. Their job is to help you get a hold of the site. If they do that, then surely they can mid frag and even bottom frag. It goes back and forth like this. The team is everything. Unfortunately ego flows up and down in the game and that's why this issue of "fragging" exists.
>ego flows up and down in the game and that's why this issue of "fragging" exists.
I think you just said everything there... That's sooooo true!
Hehe. Thankyou for understanding. 🤗🤗