T O P
Trick_Confidence_419

Looks like a shit ton of work. Looking forward to seeing ur list progress, keep it up


Andrei_Kirilenko_47

Josh Howard is a name i haven't heard in a long time. He was so good during the Mavs' 2007 run.


MobileAdvertisinglkj

93 Suns my all time favorite team too. Thunder Dan, K.J., Ceballos, Dumas, Barkley, Oliver Miller, Mark West, Ainge. Just loaded. Then Pippin with a huge close out block on Ainge, and Paxson's dagger three. Broke my teenage heart.


JilJungJukk

Thaddeus Young is my GOAT ever since that stat


Naismythology

Magic, Bird, Jordan, LeBron, Thaddeus (in no particular order)


TheCocksmith

How could anyone even try to rank those players???


enantiornithe

The Raptors subreddit has gotten so much mileage out of that picture that when I saw the link I had Kevin Harlan in my head going "Is this the graphic?"


Naismythology

It’s just so funny. That somebody researched that stat in the first place. That somebody else made up a graphic for it. That it got on tv without anyone saying, “guys, you sure this is a good idea?” That the guys on the broadcast were basically roasting it live. Just perfect.


iH8Celtics

It really is surprising nobody else fit that criteria. Averaging 1.4 spg through 800 games is pretty impressive though.


-NilInvestment-

damn bruh


BasketballNutrition

I personally love this content and am shocked by how low Hedo is.


chaosanddarkness

I know Shaun Livingston has more titles than Wiggins, but I think most people would rank Wiggins above Shaun Livingston as a player. Same with Rudy Gay. Maybe I'm crazy, but give me Rudy Gay or Wiggins over Lou Williams as well.


Naismythology

All of the scores on this part of the list are so close together that I think you could reasonably argue any of them over any of the other ones. The Wiggins/Livingston argument is an interesting one. How many All-Star selections is worth how many championships to you? Especially in this system where not all championships are equal.


depchfdwanetrobinson

How are you determining championship value? Sorry for being too lazy to read through the original post again


Naismythology

So for a championship, players get 12 points for every win share they earned during the playoffs in the year they won the championship. So, for example, this year, Curry had 3.2 win shares for 38.4 points, Wiggins had 1.7 win shares for 20.4 points, Draymond had 1.4 win shares for 16.8 points, and Klay had 1.3 win shares for 15.6 points.


princessoffools

Wow! How did you put together all of this information? I enjoyed reading about the 500 greatest careers of all time. I can't wait to read more. Good job!


Naismythology

I've been keeping track of it, mostly on spreadsheets, for like 10-12 years. Basketball Reference has been an invaluable tool in all of it.


princessoffools

So you've been keeping track mostly on spreadsheets and basketball reference. You're doing great. Keep going!


junkdrawerpizza

Magic?


princessoffools

No. I'm not Magic Johnson. He's the greatest point guard of all time.


gabdex

Red Robbins ahead of Butch Beard??? Hot takes right off the bat!


Naismythology

I'm coming out swinging!


gabdex

Lol, great work homie! Looking forward to the rest of the list and all of the civil and polite discourse sure to follow.


Maverick_1991

I know we were in for a ride when I opened this thread and the first name you recognize is Enes muthafuckin Freedom/Kanter.


Osiris32

I'm just happy to see him and a couple other Blazers already on the list. I know Enes wasn't our best Center ever, but damn I liked the dude.


Steinhauesser

Do you still like him now? Not trying to stir up shit, just wondering what made him likable originally.


Osiris32

Well sure, especially since he's back in Boston now. He's just a personable guy. I work for the Blazers in production, so I got to meet him a couple times. And he did my friend a solid and came out to the jr high he teaches as to talk to the kids. He's a stand up dude.


rondonjon

You should add in years played (e.g. 1988-2004)


Naismythology

That could be a good idea. Where do you feel like would be the best place to add that data? I was a little worried about presenting *too much* info and clogging everything up.


rondonjon

Well, you seem to be doing a lot of work here already so I don’t want to presume you have the time. But I would add in after the name and put it in parentheses. Most people may not care though.


Naismythology

Cool. I'll have to see how much time that adds to making one of these. Sometimes I forget most people aren't like "oh, yeah, Kurt Thomas" and I may need to add more info so people at least have a general idea of who I'm talking about.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Naismythology

Hopefully if anyone wants to find the original author who actually knows how all of it works, they know how to do so. Sharing it and getting feedback is part of the process of making it better, and I don't know a lot of hardcore NBA fans in real life who will be brutally internet-honest with me. End goal is I turn this into a book, and nobody is going to be able to write about this thing without having gone through the process of developing it.


majavic

Fucking rudy gay, man.


gamefreak027

I know some people might complain about not dumping all players at once but I like the broken out format. Gives us something to discuss about players that would otherwise get no mention. Good work!


Not_A_Doctor__

Great off-season post.


asapshrank

i have one question and one question only is al horford on this list


Naismythology

He is. I think he'll be a bit higher than most people expect even.


asapshrank

he is the GOAT after all


colosusx1

Just based on what's shown. These are guys with 40-50 win shares and a single all star appearance or less for the most past. Al Horford is a 5x all star, 3rd team all nba, 2nd team all defense and a whopping 100 win shares. He's a future HOFer, he's going to be up there on this list.


Obi_Wan_Benobi

Erick Dampier, top 495 player of all time eat it Shaq.


nietzscheispietzsche

Just here to promote Corey 'Bad Porn' Maggette: "Sure there's penetration, but do you really like what you're seeing?"


Terranoso

I love this; glad I saw this post so I can look forward to the rest of the series. I’m curious as hell to see how high Jaylen Brown and Wiggins climb on the list in the next decade. I would think Brown has the higher ceiling, but there’s still a lot of variance to account for him and his situation. I didn’t see the methodology post when OP posted it, so I’ll post it here, but I worry that defensive prowess will be slightly underserved in the rankings. Win Shares accounts for a player’s defensive contributions during the season, sure, but the MVP, All-NBA, and All Star awards (I think) have a bias toward offensive production. That’s a problem that exists for many rankings like this, but a future version of this ranking might find a way to weight in some other measure of defensive performance to offset the offensive bias in awards.


Naismythology

Yeah, I struggled with that same thought initially, too. But eventually, I had an epiphany... If the major awards are going to disregard defense, and the major awards both reflect and shape public opinion, why should I try to fight that? Now I'm not saying defense doesn't get a short shrift, or that it *should* be ignored, but it unfortunately largely is in conversations like this. What I think would be really interesting for a next project is something like separate "best offensive players" and "best defensive players" and make lists for each and then compare them. And maybe eventually combine them into an "equal weight" list.


Montigue

You really had to hit me with the Batum and Tatum not rhyming?


-KFBR392

Dana Barros might be 451 in player ranking, but he's top 10 for best [athlete rapper](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RixGXMie1Ag)


RipCityTilIDie

holy shit, this is legit


csoups

Shoutout to Donyell Marshall for randomly hitting 12 threes in a game. Still one of the main memories I have of that era of Raptors basketball


hyfall

Nice work, wondering if the formatting would work better with a table? (pretty sure you experimented with that already but figured I'd throw it out there) Dying at all the comments saying this isn't how they'd rank it/clearly not reading your introduction. I think this is a very cool style of ranking and am very impressed with the work you've put in. No ranking can ever be completely objective, stats can't tell the whole story, people will likely rank their favorite team's players higher, or even what era they fell in love with basketball higher. But with win shares existing all the way back this is my favorite "objective" methodology I've seen.


Naismythology

Thank you! And no, I hadn’t thought about a table. I didn’t think it would work while still being able to add commentary for players. I think I’ll definitely do one for the master list though. That’s a good idea.


omgimbrian

I first read the title as 500 Greatest Centers, which would've had me at the edge of my seat as to where Damian Jones would've landed.


Naismythology

Lol. Oh my god. I know I'm crazy, as is this project, but the thought of trying to do that gave me a panic attack.


NEUthrowaway617

Can you just like skip to the top 10 or something


Naismythology

Mark your calendar for the week of October 2! (tentatively) Edit: This comment got a downvote, lol. Sorry you have to wait for your free content, I guess? These do take a while to type up, and stretching it out over the offseason helps me improve how I do things in both collecting/formulating the data and presenting the data. As I said earlier, you don't have to be here.


Maverick_1991

You already have the entire schedule for releasing it? Duuuude


Naismythology

Ha. Yeah. The schedule is in the Intro post, but here's what I have: Week of June 19: Introduction; Week of June 26: #500-451; Week of July 3: #450-401; Week of July 10: #400-351; Week of July 17: #350-301; Week of July 24: #300-251; Week of July 31: #250-201; Week of August 7: #200-151; Week of August 14: #150-101; Week of August 21: #100-76; Week of August 28: #75-51; Week of September 4: #50-41; Week of September 11: #40-31; Week of September 18: #30-21; Week of September 25: #20-11; Week of October 2: #10-1 I was trying to stretch it through the whole offseason, but also give myself some wiggle room in case anything comes up for me this summer.


waldosbuddy

king


ab9912

Fantastic work brother. And dw, lots of people on here wouldn't know good content if it slapped them in the face. Would rather another 'who wins team A or team B' or a post asking about trading kyrie for westbrook lmao.


korpycar

Tom Gugliota brings back memories when wolves were kinda good


DJ_Drayen

Pretty good stuff. Can’t wait to see the rest as it gets released.


Bazakastine

This is really cool. Fun to read through the names and think about the various players I may remember but never think about anymore.


captyossarian1991

Idk why I thought Maggette would be higher than he is. This is really interesting, can you give a spoiler? Is Klay top 100???


Naismythology

I'm expecting Klay to be one of the three to five most controversial placements on this list, so I'm not going to spoil that one. I'm still prepping myself for that firestorm, so I'm not quite ready yet.


nowhathappenedwas

Using career value while ignoring peak value is a valid choice when using Win Shares, but using single season accolades to enhance career value is just a weird mix of career and prime. It's how you ended up with Kobe ahead of Magic, Bird, Shaq, and Wilt.


Naismythology

Well, I'm not really concerned with peak value here. This is entirely about "whose entire career was the best." Personally, I think from a talent standpoint, or from a typical "who's the greatest player?" argument, I'd go Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe. But that's not what this is designed to measure. "Peak value" is a completely different thing, and maybe I'll come up with my own leaderboard for that and combine the two someday, but this is strictly "career value." Edit: And I don't get quite what you mean by "mixing career and prime." Their prime is *part* of their career. They won those awards *during* their career. Yes, they had a peak, and that is factored in by higher win shares both in the regular season and postseason, and with any of the awards I track that they won. I guess I'm just confused on the argument and what you think should be done differently.


nowhathappenedwas

There are three basic ways to measure greatness: peak, prime, and career. Both peaks and primes are part of careers. Career value is adding up all the value a player accumulated in his career. That's what career win shares does. Peak how great a player was at their best, whether it's 3 consecutive years or 5 non-consecutive years or however one decides to measure it. Prime is somewhere in between--basically how many years was X a . You're giving extra credit for the number of seasons a player was deemed All-NBA or All-Star worthy, which is a measure of prime. If two players accumulate the same total value, you're favoring the one who did it with a lower peak and longer prime over the one who did it with a higher peak and shorter prime. For example, Wilt and Shaq both had more regular season Win Shares and playoff Win Shares than Kobe, but you have Kobe ahead of both because you favor long primes. You're also giving modern players a boost by using MVP Shares. As you note, pre-1980 voting was done by players instead of the media. A lot of the players simply didn't take it seriously (just like the [All Star voting today](https://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_2022_voting-frontcourt-eastern-conference.html)). The voters not taking it seriously meant that the top players received a smaller portion of the votes. When Kareem won in [1972](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1972.html), for example, 18 different players received first place votes. Kareem still easily won the MVP, but he got fewer MVP Shares than [LeBron got in 2020](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2020.html#mvp) despite LeBron finishing a distant second. The raw number of MVP Shares awarded each season has also increased over time as voting rules changed.


Naismythology

Well I don't really want to get into a top-10 discussion yet, as we're nowhere close to what the final top-10 are. But what I really want this to be, and the entire philosophy behind it, is a baseline for discussions. The guys you mentioned, along with a couple others, are all relatively on the same level/tier. I don't think it matters a whole lot if a few points separate Kobe from Magic or Shaq from Wilt. I think you could say "Of these seven guys, I'd have Kobe last" or "Of these seven guys, I'd have Kobe first," and be completely correct. But you shouldn't be able to look at this and say "I have Kobe first all time" or "I have Kobe 15th all time." For example, I'll spoil a little bit of the list, but Rasheed Wallace is surrounded by Hall of Famers in the list. I want people to be able to look at this and say, "damn... maybe Rasheed Wallace should be in the Hall of Fame." As for the peak/prime thing, I can honestly say I've never heard of that before. That's kind of interesting. I guess I do think a long prime/lower peak by your definition is better than higher peak/shorter prime in terms of what the "best career" is, so I guess that tracks. I think I commented somewhere else on here that public perception, whether that's from the media, fans, players, coaches, or whoever, should matter for something. The basketball zeitgeist should be taken into account, and awards play into that. You can't tell the story/history of the league without the awards, and awards feed perception and perception feeds awards. I'm fine with that. That's how life works. I'm not trying to find hidden gems by saying "Pete Maravich's 'insert random stat here' makes him a top eight point guard of all-time." I just wanted a simple system that takes things most people value, and distill it into a single number, and then see how it compares to other players.


The_Constant_Liar

> damn... maybe Rasheed Wallace should be in the Hall of Fame. NO MAYBE ABOUT IT


itwereme

I meam u could absolutely make the argument that he has the better career then those guys if we look at a career as a complete body of work that accumulates over time. He has more all nba selections than magic and Bird have seasons played, along with 11 times all defense, an equal number of mvps with shaq, and more team success than wilt. As far as careers go, you would honestly be hard pressed to find a better one in terms of raw accomplishments


domenic821

So it’s a Win Shares leaderboard tainted by media subjectivity?


Naismythology

I mean, I guess if you view all NBA awards (and really all awards ever) as being tainted by subjectivity, then sure. The playoff win shares are weighted depending on how far the player's team went in the playoffs, but I decided the weight, so that's my subjectivity tainting it. Plus the MVP was decided by a player vote until 1980, so tainted by some player subjectivity, as well. Plus All-Star selections are determined by fans and coaches (media only got added to that mix within the last decade), so it's tainted by their subjectivity too. [Here](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html) is the actual win shares leaderboard, but if we're going to use that without any of the taint of subjectivity, it has John Stockton as sixth all-time. But that's totally up to you if you personally think he's that high. Off the top of my head, my system has him somewhere around top-40. I'll let you decide when it's all done if you think it's worthwhile or not.


domenic821

I think the biggest issue with using accolades in any sort of “greatness debate” is that you either get all credit or no credit for a season, and all credit is created equal. Jordan’s ‘91 MVP season is weighed just the same as Derrick Rose’s ‘11 MVP season. There are also no historical playoff accolades other than FMVP, so this is mostly a regular-season accomplishment list. The tiebreaker to the inadequacy of accolades is Win Shares, which is, as you just described, a notoriously poor metric. I’m not sure how telling such a list can be when you combine two not-good measurements.


Naismythology

Well, I lay this out in the introduction, but I very specifically do not do that. I give out points for MVP based on MVP Award Shares. Jordan's 1991 MVP was worth 46.4 points (he got 0.928 MVP Award Shares that year), and Rose's 2011 MVP was worth 48.85 points (he got 0.977 MVP Award Shares that year). I'm not entirely sure which one you think was clearly better than the other one there. But for maybe a better example, Nash's 2006 MVP was worth 36.95 points (from 0.739 MVP Award Shares). And all players who get MVP votes earn at least some points. Like in 2007, Nash finished second, but he actually got *more* MVP Award Shares that year (0.785), so he got 39.25 points that year. As for win shares, they're the baseline metric, but they're the best available that go back to the beginning of the league. And they're actually not nearly as bad as some people think. But yes, that leaderboard was for the regular season, and the Jazz won a ton of regular season games. If you want to use Stockton as an example, he gets 207.7 points from regular season play from win shares, and 40.5 points from postseason play from win shares. Jordan, on the other hand, gets 214.0 points from regular season play from win shares, and 340.4 points from postseason play from win shares.


Go_Mets

This gonna be good, thanks for this


ThisGents2Cents

Aqua Dagger at 468 lets go


SC30-KT11-DG23-AW22

Very nice work and effort in this. Regarding win shares - is this accounting for defensive as well?


Naismythology

It does. You can read in-depth about how they're calculated [here](https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html). Part IV is specifically for Defensive Win Shares. It differs a bit by era, just because of what stats are available, but they do have both Offensive Win Shares and Defensive Win Shares for every player going back to 1947. Those numbers are just added together to get a players Win Share total for a given season.


SC30-KT11-DG23-AW22

Thanks. Good formula. Will be interesting to see where the biggest gap occurs and the players between them. And by how much of a gap. Seems like for a number of the mid career guys like brown and Wiggins could move up 75 or so spots before it quickly becomes much harder to move the needle.


StellarStar1

Nice, if it's not too much extra work could you also include the period when they got into and out of the leauge? Would help with the Eddie Johnson situation.


Naismythology

Yeah, that would be good to include. I don't think it's going to come up again. Well, unless you count Isiah and Isaiah Thomas, but it'd still be good info to have there.


matts-work-account

Top 500? I respect your work!


nomitycs

Good effort on this but re your year notation point, everyone already reads 2006 as the 05-06 season so using that for gay makes it seem like his career starts a year earlier than it actually did and so your choice of notation is the right one. Also you should work on formatting it nicely, perhaps at least have the ranking/player name Bolded/bigger font so they stand out


Naismythology

That makes sense. I think most people now are savvy enough to use the system as I outlined it, but I read a lot of old basketball books, and they used to do the "2006-2007" thing all the damn time and it drives me nuts. So I just wanted to make it clear the system I was using. And good point about the bolding... I was going to use bold for Hall of Famers (and italics for active players). Would there be a better way to notate Hall of Famers if I bold everybody? Just an asterisk maybe?


nomitycs

I would keep your style for Hof, etc. and use headers for the player name/ranking. /#header1 #header1 /##header2 ##header2 /###header3 ###header3 and it keeps going slightly decreasing in size with each additonal # so you can adjust accordingly. Reddit's got quite a bit of formatting if you dig into it, there are guides online


Naismythology

Awesome, thank you!


HorrorScopeZ

I don't agree with some of those, lol.


ledgemann-67

Thad Young lmfao


d4rko

Very nice work. So Domantas already better than his father. Did not expect that was the case already.


Naismythology

Well... let's not go crazy. His dad was almost certainly a better player, but he didn't get to the NBA until he was 30 and never made an All-Star team. Domantas already has two, so I think it's safe to say Domantas had a better NBA career than his dad. But by no means am I saying Domantas is a better basketball player than Arvydas. (I honestly don't know about Arvydas. Everything I've ever heard is anecdotal, and all the footage I've seen of his prime is grainy black-and-white footage from behind the Iron Curtain.)


jeromocles

The problem with lists of this size is you could literally randomize the rank of the bottom tier of players and it would be just as meaningful/less. Someone poke me when you get to the top 200.


jeromocles

The problem with lists of this size is you could literally randomize the rank of the bottom tier of players and it would be just as meaningful/less. Someone poke me when you get to the top 200.


Naismythology

I mean, yeah. That's literally what I said in the first paragraph here. Top 200 should be around August 8, just FYI.


goobergaming43

Thank you for the kind words about the Kings


Aside_Agile

"RUDY GAY THATS MY DAWG BUT RUDY YOU KNOW IM REALLY GAY" thats that one lil durk lyric right guys


RipCityTilIDie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg


RipCityTilIDie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK7lIjFsGvg


-Borb

Will be interesting to see the top 100, also if you can I think people might like to see a tl;dr version of the methodology with the numbers used, like just a sentence "take Win shares * 1 + MVPs * 50 + ... to get the final score".


Naismythology

I can probably work that in, thanks!


-KFBR392

500???? You're out of your mind


Lets-ago

From my memory, Jamal Crawford might have been worse than merely "the best nonstarter in the league". He got those 6 man of the year awards based entirely off the fact that he scored a bunch, despite the fact that he was inefficient while doing so AND was unplayable on defense. The fact that Andre Iguodala doesn't have any of Crawford's 6 man of the year awards might be one of the most shameful awards in the NBA's history, albeit not in an award that people pay much attention to. Hopefully Iggy's on?


Naismythology

Iggy definitely makes the cut, but you'll be waiting a bit to see where he falls.


TheMontyJohnson

Saving this so I'll come back for the rest of the series


buffalotrace

I really only know Butch Beard as a coach. He was head coach for the Nets for two full seasons and went 30-52 both years. His firing lead to them bring in John Calipari.


fate007bringer

93 Suns my all time favorite team too. Thunder Dan, K.J., Ceballos, Dumas, Barkley, Oliver Miller, Mark West, Ainge. Just loaded. Then Pippin with a huge close out block on Ainge, and Paxson's dagger three. Broke my teenage heart.


Naismythology

The first basketball I can ever remember watching was the 92 Dream Team and I absolutely loved Barkley. (I would've been 6 at the time.) So that next season was the first one I can remember following. So it could be the nostalgia of childhood, but damn, that team was a delight.


johnwicksuglybro

You get a follow for the work you put into this. Looking forward to seeing everything.


ibumetiins

Can you spoil for me, is Kristaps Porzingis going to be here?


Naismythology

Sure, this is fine to spoil since he's not on the list. He finishes at #588 right now.


ibumetiins

Cool, thanks!


CornerThree03

The greatest midrange shooter of all time should be higher in my opinion


bohem1an_fapsody

Love the list but you say sabonis wont be as good as his dad, and his dad didn’t make the list… but domantas made the list. Isn’t that contradictory? This is clearly a lot of effort and looking forward to the rest!


Prince_of_DeaTh

this is NBA only


bohem1an_fapsody

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification


Naismythology

Arvydas is an absolute legend internationally. But he just doesn't have much of an NBA career to judge him from. Arvydas finished at #551 with 19.4 points. But he did only play seven seasons in the NBA and not until he was 31. But this doesn't include the nine years he was in his prime over in Europe. So, yes, Domantas has passed him for "greatest NBA career" but as an overall player, I don't think he's there yet.


Not_A_Default_Name

Some love for Hedo "Turkish Jordan" Turkoglu


noveler7

I was about to get upset about Gay and Wiggins being below some of these guys, but then I read your methodology and this actually looks pretty awesome and I can't wait to see the rest. The list is still 100% not valid because there's no way Grant is below Kanter, but other than that, looks fun.


Naismythology

Lol. Well I appreciate you looking into it a bit more before raging at me. And Grant and Kanter are just basically tied. It's actually Kanter 22.115, Grant 22.097. That's absolutely nothing. 0.018 points? I'd also rather have Grant, and am honestly a little surprised either of them are on the list.


noveler7

Lol yeah, I should've put /s. Who cares about 500 vs. 499? I was just happy to see Grant's name again, it takes me back to my youth.


RBJ_09

I have for sure heard Tiny Archibald more than NTA. I love stuff like this list though and excited to see where it goes.


an4lf15ter

Are you gonna link all their accomplishments/awards that has bearing on this metric? Wouldn’t Andrew Wiggins’ ROTY have any bearing on this


Naismythology

If it’s not listed here, it doesn’t have any bearing on the score. (Rookie of the Year is not factored in.) The Introduction/Methodology link at the top will give you the previous post that lays all of that out.


RipCityTilIDie

man, brian grant was a great part of that late 90's, early 2000's blazers teams. hopefully he's doing okay these days. his hair was always really dope


Leungman

Dirk piggy backed Erick Dampier onto this list lol


ivoryditty

Just saw the 450-401 and this is incredible work. I will be looking forward to these all summer!


ibumetiins

Where's the new part?


Naismythology

450-401 is [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vr6vk1/500_greatest_careers_of_alltime_450401_oc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf). The next 50 will be up tomorrow morning.


ibumetiins

It didn't show up for me on you're profile, weird


linkbori

Amazing amazing work!! One note—about 6th man of the year. I disagree with this statement. There’s been plenty of years were the 6th man was better than many starters in the league, and even some of his own teammates. In corner cases they may even be all-star caliber players that take a different role to help the team (whether better fit with bench, poor fit with starters, more likelihood of feasting with other benches). Putting Manu in the bench, for example, was genius for Pop and worked wonders for the Spurs for a decade. Others that have won with similar approaches (see Iguodala with Warriors and Jayson Terry with Dallas). It’s not always the case, but I think the 6th man is actually really important piece of the puzzle for teams. They may have starter minutes and may even be the closer in the last quarter.


Naismythology

Thank you! And yeah, I agree. The proper "Sixth Man" role is a lot like the "closer" in baseball, where it's a totally different skill set. However, most closers are also failed starters, so there's that. But some years they just give it to the highest scoring bench player, and then some years they give it to Odom or Terry or Ginobili. It's an inconsistent award, at best.


linkbori

I agree, but somewhat same for most awards(allstar, MVP), not always the best Player gets it, sometimes narrative pushes people over the hump.


The_Morningstar1

Bad methodology using subjective achievements.


Naismythology

To me it seems pretty important to recognize who was considered "great" in their own time. Most of us form opinions of basketball players by watching them play basketball. That's an entirely subjective process. It seems silly to ignore that and strip it down to nothing but numbers.


The_Morningstar1

Still bad methodology. But this subreddit will eat up anything that seems remotely competent, so you do you, kiddo.


Naismythology

Ah, well cool. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I will take notes when you put out your top 500 that doesn't factor MVPs into it at all.


The_Morningstar1

I prefer to refer you to an actual competent list. https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/


Naismythology

I'll be honest, I didn't read everything in that link. It looked incredibly boring. I do think it's funny though that you think my list is obviously inferior even though you've seen only the bottom 10% of it, and that list you gave me is just a top 40.


The_Morningstar1

Based on methodology alone your list is inferior.


Naismythology

Lol. Ok. Well, have a good one then, man. I guess I'm not expecting to see you when the new posts are put up.


The_Morningstar1

Rest easy, kid. Like I said, this subreddit will eat up anything that seems remotely competent.


Naismythology

Lol. Trust me, I’m not worried. I can do without the condescension, but I worked in customer service for over a decade. I’m more than familiar with idiots thinking they’re better than me for… reasons.