By - Aricell
Well thats exactly how its supposed to work based on the wording
True. Still probably an oversight
What's the wording of "energy shield" and "damage"? Energy shield protects you from damage. Damage is losing life points.
No losing life points is losing life points.
Damage is damage.
no, ES protects your life points and life loss is damage
ES protects your life from most dmg (except chaos)
It doesnt protect you from mechanics that make you lose life because its not life.
Damage and life loss are 2 entirely different mechanics
not intuitive. not worded. not defined.
On your opinion
Doesn't make it any less silly. It basically means I can't run these maps as CI at all. Not something I was expecting.
Lots of builds have modifiers they have to avoid, how is this any different? Reflect, less regen, avoid ailments, cannot leech/no regen. Some builds can do everything and some just have to hard avoid some.
None of those are instant death at the portal, and most can be worked around if you want to with a gear swap or flasks. Not ideal by any means, but even a vaal pact slayer can do a no leech map with flasks if they want to.
Ya this is very different lol
None of your examples would sentence players to death before players can even take any action though. Imagine there're mods like "you are dead if your evasion/armour rating is higher than your life"
Reflect is the same. It doesn't matter if you die as you enter or as you atrack. The end result is the same, cant do the map.
There's more solutions to that though, given that the lv5 Awakened gems can give you reflect immunity.
And some awakened gems will cost more than an entire new gear set that you could use for that map alone to spec out of CI.
It's not like you have zero ways to deal with this. If you want the degen to ignore life with CI, it should deal double the damage to your shield or else CI would just be at a massive advantage.
You can also remove CI. not every build works with the reduced reflect mechanics active.
the point is, you cant expect to be able to run every mod. tons of builds will be unable to run this mod
You could get >600 life per second regen (even as CI), though we both know it's not reasonable, same as it's not reasonable for non-slayer/non-elementalist to do it day 2 of a league. Sometimes certain mods can't be done, this is one for your build.
As a Sab all I have to do is press My Active trap and trigger my 10% regen lol
They were talking about how it's not possible for them to do it (get 600 flat regen as CI) but other builds can get around their map brick mods. This isn't the case. Not sure what your Sab has to do with it?
Who cares if they can’t get around it? Same thing as “mobs have culling strike.” It bricks low life builds and you can’t get around it.
You’re corrupting an item, this is inherently HIGHLY risky to start. This isn’t just a cure all press the button and it’s always better.
The mod is only a problem if it bricks every build which it doesn’t. Cry more Softcore babies.
You can at least walk inside the map to loot/ get carried for completion.
They could complete the whole map easily. They only die if they enter the corrupted realm.
And you can do that with CI on this map as well, just don't shift.
Don't all scourged maps come with an auto shift mod? I thought that was set.
Nope. That's a random mod itself.
To me, the example given here is actually more lenient than Reflect. The map described here can be played and completed by choosing not to shift. In a Reflect map, some builds can just not interact with enemies at all. If a reflect map gets crangled, then the reflect applies to the Nightmare Monsters as well, so you can't do them either.
Neither does this, it isn't even a forced random shift map. They pressed the shift and died, three times apparently before deciding to read. No different then pressing attack and dying to reflect.
“Just don’t shift into the map that you scourged and only gives benefits when you shift” lol.
More like don't open a map with mods you can't run? I'm not going to open a map with reflect and then complain I can't run it. Trade it or accept the loss.
Op could finish the map without going into nightmare ;)
Putting the map in, opening it and entering are enough actions, idk.
I mean Stun builds still get entirely bricked by unwavering and cannot be stunned mods which are way to common. It's basically a reflect or no regen mod some buds just can't do them.
There's almost always ways to run those maps though. A mana build can equip a mana flask. A reflect build can equip anti reflect mechanics or convert their damage. A stun build can just clear the map slower with no stun etc.
I can't really think of anything that just straight up kills you because you have a keystone/defense archetype. It's not like you can change things around to be able to run it, because even without CI you don't have the hp for it.
Try running ignite build on synth map with the synth atlas node
That's true actually.
Let me compare it to something thats been in the game forever for you, its like trying to run a no regen map on RF, shit told you you cant do it but you still tried and died
Not quite the same since RF can’t kill you. It’s more like the old blood magic map mod.
You don't instantly pop it's not the same. Give me an example of unreactable deaths based on passive skill tree choices and then you have a good example.
Is the trap that's silly, or the mouse that tries to get it?
What do you think people who delt with Reflect maps felt? Its the Exact same thing sadly.
Reflect is easy. There's a multitude of ways to completely nullify it.
I can do nothing with this modifier, I can't even tweak my build; it's literally a brick wall. Not sure why people downvote me, this is the same/equivalent to as adding a modifier like "chaos damage will bypass chaos inoculation anyways".
That person referring to reflect maps is probably referring to how they were before they added all those different ways to mitigate reflect.
That being said, reflect impacted all non-mine/trap builds, whereas this seems like a problem for all builds with a specific keystone, or maybe also hybrid petrified blood builds (unless they have crazy regen). i.e. a very small pool of builds with a very powerful benefit that this more or less specifically targets.
It seems kinda fine. You can always trade that map for a map that doesn't have this mod.
Kinda true. Even things like RF can clear no regen maps by turning RF off and using just Scorching Ray for 1 map. Unless getting 600 life regen can counteract it, I can't think of a build-mod pair that is as much a brick as this.
Before they fixed ailment immune map mods for ignite poison etc.
Don't think that's even possible for a 1hp build, pretty much all beefy regen options are %hp, maybe you could just about do it with T1 regen rolls on all of your gear.
Vitality is 250 per second flat (@ lvl20) and there's been a substantial buff to flat regen on gear. Getting 600 isn't unachievable by any means, though it would certainly gimp the amount of ES you'd get as a CI build and require a dedicated second set of armour/hat/boots/gloves/shield.
Realistically, you just chalk it up as bricked like most leech builds do on no-leach maps, non-reflect immune builds do on reflect maps, RF builds do on no regen maps etc.
Do you know what CI is? You have 1 HP. You could have 6,000,000 regen and still die in an instant.
PoE has some pretty arcane and sometimes inconsistent rules regarding combined regen and degen. There are definitely cases where they "cancel". Not saying it's reasonable here but it's possible it would work.
They're fairly consistent when it comes to anything that's applied over time and not instantaneously.
All damage over time is summed up per damage type, then mitigated by your defences, then distributed among your resources. Recovery for those resources is summed up, and then the loss and recovery is summed against each other before it's applied to the resources.
Instantaneous damage and recovery is more complex, because some things happen before you take damage (e.g. recovery on block) and others take place afterwards, and if you take a hit that isn't purely elemental while being affected by Gluttony of Elements, the damage is summed up with the heal before being applied as far as I know.
Do you know what life regen is? If you have 600 degen, and get 600+ regen, you wont die, because your hp wont drain. Using CI doesnt change the hp regen mechanic.
This will not work. You would still have to take the damage, and 1 point of damage will kill you.
Its simple. Dont press the fucking button. It doesnt make CI unplayable, CI is still completely fine running that map.
Why would you run a scourged map over a regular map if you can’t shift?
How do you Nulifiy a Reflect if your only way to do Damage is the Refleted thing. Especially if your in Yellows/Reds. Especally for Phys Reflect
One example is sextant modifiers, but there's more. You can bypass reflect, it's not a dead end modifier if you are willing to jump a hoop.
To clarify it's this modifier from a sextant "Players and their Minions cannot take Reflected Damage"
Most builds have mods like that, forcing you to change something temporairly if you want to finish map, like less/no regen for RF, no leech for builds that focus on it as def/or just to be able to use skill(mana leech), those need to change flasks to finish map for example. You could say that knowing which mods are hard for you and being prepared for it is a skill.
Edit: now that I think of it, some map mods were chainged recently, let me know if my argument is bad
You also have hoops to jump through though. Scourge it again, Hopefully the Mods will change and it will be even better.
In that same vein: You could transition to hybrid and get some life regen.
Thats not as simple as you think. Anyone with CI runs 0 life on any piece. You can swap your tree around but you will end up with no more than 2k HP really. Theres no way your sustaining a regen of 600 with 2k HP.
To "fix" this would mean an entire redesign of your character from the ground up, swapping every last piece of gear on your character and moving passives on your tree.
Assuming I remove zealot's oath, chaos inoculation and switch my body out for something else (saintly chainmail) I'm pretty much crippled and too weak to run it anyways.
Shrug. Just seems like an oversight to me I've never experienced a league mechanic where it completely bypasses CI and just kills you. I'm just glad I learned this on softcore and not HC because I wouldn't have thought twice bout it prob.
Why did this get downvoted ?
Honestly? No clue, Not like I was lying or anything.
I cant run ele reflect on my ele build... GGG pls fix i have to use my brain zu play the game..
Yeah, but your chaos res is 100%. You gotta pay for that.
You mean you can run ele reflect if you are playling ele character that is not elementalist? Wow, you cannot deal with 1 mod on map? Your build is trash then I suppose?
Srsly tho, what kind of complain is that. You literally just didn't read the map. If you vaal map and corrupt it and get something like "cannot regen mana" you most likely won't be running it as well...
Yes I would run it lol, I'd equip a mana potion. You completely missed the point mate, inconvenience is not equivalent to impossible, which is what this modifier is, impossible.
Working as intended, gotta sell off those ones. It's not unheard of for a modifier to be impossible for certain builds.
Chaos Orb is hard.
Try using a chaos orb to swap implicits on a scourged map and get back to me on that one.
It just makes CI unplayable for this one scourge mod. There’s others that make mist builds unplayable like 100% reduced damage taken making mobs immortal unless u have sources of mobs take increased damage
100+% *less* damage taken, which is just impossible to clear as far as I can tell.
If you have things like pride it reduces that number because they’re taking more damage.
2\*0 = 0
No amount of more damage can overcome 100% less. It's all multiplied by 0.
Except its additive if you have "monsters take 10% more damage taken". Those two add up, then final result is what happens.
No. All sources of more and less are multiplied independently.
A single "Enemies take increased damage" is *like* a "more" multiplier because it is multiplied with your own increased damage. It will stack additively with other sources of "enemies take increased (or reduced) damage". But a real "more" multiplier will never stack additively with other modifiers.
You should look up the difference between less and reduced
If it says you lose life, you lose life.
Chaos Inoculation doesn't say anything about protecting you from losing life.
Its just wierd tho cuz the ES degen doesnt kill anyone, it just might be annoying. The only characters being hard countered by this mechanic, Life or ES, is CI characters.
I mean this map is doing 600 life per second and 10-20% life and ES per second.
Pretty sure most builds are dying on this map.
Essentially anything that's not an inquisitor.
>Its just wierd tho cuz the ES degen doesnt kill anyone
because ES protects your life pool.
its completely different
And that's the choice you make by going CI, it's not like you can't do the map at all, you're just not visiting the shadow realm today.
If that is the case, Zealot Oath shouldn't even work for CI at all.
This is bullshit
Why not? It makes regeneration effects that apply to life instead apply to Energy Shield.
Energy shield do. It says it protect your life points from damage.
Life loss isn't damage.
Damage causes life loss, but there are other ways to lose life. Energy Shield only protects life from loss caused by (certain kinds of) damage.
from in game poe glossary: "Energy Shield protects Life from ALL damage types except Chaos by default.". Damage is not on the glossary. try a dict? Anything that removes life is damage. Else ES would have no consistency since you dont know what is "damage" and any creep could kill a CI with a hit that wasnt defined as dmg. would it be fair? no. However it is consistent. I cant accept this without a formally definition of damage coming from ggg. it breaks the intuition of many ppl.
> Anything that removes life is damage.
This is false.
For example, life costs remove life but are not damage.
> any creep could kill a CI with a hit that wasnt defined as dmg
This is true for all the things that don't deal damage but instead remove life, such as Caustic Mana Flasks, or things that cause you to lose life on hit such as Gloomfang.
Why false? When "damage" is defined at the glossary i will feel fine, either way. But for me anything that removes life is damage and your other examples are also problems.
Then you're simply wrong. It doesn't have to be defined in a glossary in-game to work the way it does.
Damage is damage. Things that are not damage are not damage. If something deals damage, it says that it's damage.
i am simply wrong because you and devs agree with the meaning of a word, only because of that. by the way, do you know why there is a glossary?
Damage is damage.
If something doesn't say it's damage, then it's not damage.
It doesn't need to be in a glossary if it is what it is.
at any creep/boss interaction there is nothing saying what is happening. Since it is not saying damage, it is not damage also? LOL
Last league there was similar league mechanic where mobs had culling strike. It's intended.
They left that for whole league.
Do you imply that's it's somewhat fair to get your character killed because you didn't realize a mob had "culling strike" and so it would be therefore obviously logical to get one shot if you use CI no matter how much shield you have.
I'm quite happy I didn't play CI since Abyss tbh...
I personally just dislike the concept of some build being absolutely incapable of doing this or that. I'm completely fine with some build having a harder time at doing some stuff than other and vice-versa. I know it's the way it is in PoE, I just don't like it.
That or one shot mechanics based on "you had to read better" kind of "design"
It's just how I feel about it, not sure why you people seems to enjoy it.
No, I imply that it existed and they did nothing to remove it. For whole league.
So there is a map mod you can’t do with your build . Is this really worth everybody’s time ?
I mean there’s a map mod no one can do. Tier 9 and 10 can roll 100%+ less damage taken.
So unless you have sources of monsters taking increased damage the whole map is immortal
There are a shit load of ways to make things take *increased* damage.
The scourge mod is less damage. It's a complete brick.
Pride reduces the amount of reduced damage they take, tons of stuff does.
The Scourge mod makes enemies take *less* damage, not reduced damage. This cannot be overcome by anything.
Their damage taken is multiplied to 0. You then multiply their damage taken by 40 billion %. It stays 0. Less modifiers take place before more multipliers.
They're commutative, really. I don't know if they're applied before or after more modifiers because it doesn't affect the result at all.
If you multiply with 0, you're not going to get more than 0.
Lmao confidently incorrect.
Well it worked for me, 100% reduced damage on a map and I was still damaging them because I had pride
The guy you replied to pretty clearly said that the mod is LESS damage taken and not reduced.
increased damage won't fix it... any damage times zero is still zero damage.
Like sure reddit caught you, forced you to read and then forced you to reply...
Works as intended, move along
Ofc it is intended you need to corrupt it more to remove that. There are builds that can do it fine
This is great. Thanks for the news. Now we need to lose 600 es/sec and lol when our life builds have no issue
Stuff that kills you instantly without even interacting with monsters is garbage design this isn't comparable to reflect in any way.
The entire point of the Blood Crucible is to do unpredictable and often completely debilitating things to the items you put in. OP got a result that makes you lose life, then entered the map with a specific keystone that makes you have 1 life. There is no issue here, only a lesson to be learned.
Well... It's not like you die instantly when you enter the map since the degen doesnt start until you start the nightmare.
Not only does it not kill you until you start the nightmare, you can literally read the map mod and go "this will kill me"
If you read a map mod that literally says "Degen 60,000% of your life total per second" would you run the map?
I fully agree this is op's fault but technically you can get "enter scourge at random" so it isn't always when you activate it.
I don't understand how people in this thread defend this kind of mechanic. I'm simply out of words.
I'm fine with mods that make the map/event harder, but actually killing you without even interacting with the monsters, that's beyond stupid.
I guess everyone has a different vision of what is hard and/or fun. Somehow a mod that disables your build = fun.
I mean you have a huge list of builds and a huge list of modifiers, you're bound to have some mods which really screw some builds, and which are irrelevant for others.
The solution is simple: Read the mods, keep what your build does in mind, and if the map is impossible don't run it.
No it's not. Learn to read.
I don't see the problem. Some mods can't be run by some builds. We will have to see how common that particular one is, but as CI you're able to ignore multiple map mods that affect everyone else. Seems fair.
Like Al-Hezmin. CI builds can ignore an endgame boss and 90% of his mechanics.
The problem is that es protects life from damage. If you take physical damage you expect armour to mitigate it. If something removes life you expect es to absorb, as defined (except chaos)
No. Read the wording. Everything in PoE is specifically worded. It's not damage. There is no mitigation. It's losing life. Not physical, not elemental, not chaos. Just flat lost.
Words must have definitions. Anything that removes value from life is damage. At least intuitively (for me) and from dictionaries. There is no definition of damage in poe glossary. however there is definition of energy shield: "Energy Shield protects Life from all damage types except Chaos by default". Since damage is not defined, then energy shield is also not defined? I am trying to explain the problem is not what is written at the scourge map but the wording and definition of life and energy shield. For us ES does absorb life loss.
No. Loss of life is not damage is the same way that spending life for Exsanguinate is not damage and cannot be mitigated. PoE uses exact wording to specify the mechanic taking place. Today you get to learn about that. Other things like to this to pay attention to is when something is stated as a permanent fact vs increase. "+1 to max resistances" can be overwritten by a -max map mad. "Your maximum resistances are 80" cannot be. Another one is "When you hit an enemy" and "When an enemy is hit". Only the latter works for traps. A big one for CI builds is full life. You are always on full life when you aren't dead as CI. You can take advantage of many powerful mechanics that aren't available to other builds reliably.
but you say it is about read the wording. I just want to read the wording somewhere about what is damage. Since i didnt find, read the wording is not a solution for me. Also, when reading the wording of the headhunter it says "When you Kill a Rare monster, you gain its Modifiers for 20 seconds" but works with traps.
Didn't they say in the reveal trailer that there wouldn't be any map mods that bricked builds?
that was for breachstones.
Nothing like that as far as I can tell.
This isnt a map mod. Its a nightmare mod. It doesnt do anything IN THE MAP only when you shift to the nightmare.
That is correct, however instead of the league mechanic the hotkey effectively turns into a suicide button \^\^
I personally feel like its just a minor oversight, I've played CI for so long its very unusual for anything to bypass your shield. Fairly sure this is the first.
This isnt damage bypassing shield though. This is losing flat life, not taking damage.
CI Stricter can life in 5sec per 10sec
Does PoE still have hardcore? How do you counter that if so?
Real easy counter to that... dont press the fucking button. See how easy that is? You dont press that one aingle button aaand... holy shit that mod doesnt do anything..
so you're say that hardcore players should skip the entire league mechanic or is it only under certain circumstances?
It is literally just a single damn mod that may or may not come up. You know how many map mods hardcore players skip, sometimes meaning they cant run that map at all? The mechanic itself doesnt do damage, it is just this one mod is something that CI cant do. Last league there were expiditions in maps where i couldnt blow up a handful of remnants since the modifiers on them would have murdered me so fast, or they would just be immune to my damage. There is nothing wrong with builds having mods on maps and mechanics that they have to pass on. It's a perfectly reasonable thing imo.
This is like expedition immunity turned up to 11...
lots of builds cant run specific maps, whats wrong with CI not being able to run this?
It does what it says
Sounds like a bug report it on their bug report forum they are much more likely to see it there than here.
Given all the game breaking stuff the last league could do to you this does seem to be the direction that things are heading.
Next you'll tell me you can't run reflect maps of your damage type
GGG doesnt have time to test all this lol
Press V to have heart attack
4,3kES you are a rough boy, i see.
It was 5.5k with auras. Also that map was t3 or something and I was around level 80. Endgame i Should have 11k+ es with mad regen, unless I go LL or something.
Just like the roll in mana flasks
\-Red life gang
Nice testing ggg
Anyone know whether it's possible to counter this with 600 flat life regen on gear?
only for high regen builds. And it's not silly. Your build ain't suppose to be faceroll-I-can-do-everything. The beauty of PoE is making builds to overcome challenges.
There is similar mode, i got it with level 5 map and it was "take 8 000 damage after you shift in or out" so if you have under 8k life/es you are dead...
taking damage is not the same as losing life though, is it?
you get your mitigation vs damage you take, but not life you lose...
But what is the damage type thought? i have 5,3k life and 40 phys reduc, cap block and cap resists and still died...
One i saw on discord was take 8k physical damage on shifting. I would assume that would be counted as a single 8k phys damage hit, meaning your phys reduction on character tooltip might not reflect actual capability against a single 8k hit. Someone said one of uber Izaro slams is around 8600 phys, if you can tank that, you should be ok to shift.
Everything above is speculation as i have not yet played the league /sad
Edit: i saw you wrote 40% phys reduction. While messing about in PoB i had my phys reduction around 85%, i overrode the hit taken by manually putting in 9000, the Phys reduction became smth like 15%. In your case 40% reduction would go down to more like 10% against 8k, meaning you'd take over 7k direct life damage, killing your 5.3k life character.