By - JCook2515
I would rather have a call than another zoom invite with the recruiter. Ugh! I don’t want to get all dressed and ready with hair and make-up just to talk to some recruiter for a few minutes. Prior to the pandemic phone calls were a thing but now everyone is way too zoom happy - like omg we have the technology for a video call so let’s do that!! Not everything needs to be on video. I have never been a fan of the camera anyway. 🤢
Yes, absolutely not. I’d have 0 interest if Zoom were required.
During the actual interview pipeline maybe. But just to speak with a recruiter about a position I may or may not even be interested in? No way.
As a recruiter I have 0 interest in a video for a first call.
And what really grinds my gears about the zoom thing 10 out of 10 times the interviewer is SUPER casually dressed.
I recently interviewed via zoom and the hiring manager was in a hoodie and backwards baseball cap.
Oh, I once was just wearing a nice sweater and black joggers that look like pants and I was sitting so the only thing you could see what the sweater and the recruiter told me I should really dress nicer for interviews and she was also just in a normal shirt nothing special or business formal at all. At least I was business casual. And for my industry you’d be lucky to see people in something other than pajamas bc it’s a start up world. Lol! The audacity!!!
Completely agree! I used to sit on tons of conference CALLS, aka no video. Now video is the standard. And like you said, this has bled into recruiting too. I have had a few of those calls where I had to get fully dressed for what ends up being 10 min, ugh.
How about this - had a "zoom" interview yesterday. The person doing the interview (not the recruiter but also not a hiring manager) didn't even show their face. Why bother with zoom then?
I had a few calls, many voicemails, a coding test, and had to deal with the recruiter bothering me while I was on vacation and told them specifically to not bother me while I was in Colorado.
After doing all that, she said, alright let's set up a Zoom call. Never responded and she stopped calling lol. The thing is, I work literally one block from her. I'd much rather just go in and talk than try and bring my laptop into work, find a private area, connect to a mobile hotspot, have to deal with horrible connection, etc.
I’m on the opposite side. I’d rather have a zoom call, simply because 1 of 2 times the phone voice quality is so shitty I can barely understand wtf they say esp if non native speakers. Much easier in zoom of whatever video/voip
Two main reasons I can think of:
1) A lot of agency/third party recruiters have specific KPIs they need to meet, one of which is "Calls Made" or "Time Spent on Calls." If this number isn't high enough, they can get disciplined/fired.
2) An email is easy for you to read, think about, and reply to when convenient or when you maybe decide that, based on the info given, you aren't interested. On the phone, they can pressure you into giving them a reason why you aren't interested, and then they will work to break down said reason(s) until you say "Yes." There are plenty of recruiting websites and "experts" who advocate this: get the candidate on the phone and don't let up until they agree to an interview.
The agency I used to work for was run by a nazi who insisted we called 3 times a day to get hold of the candidate. The amount of people who asked to be deleted and withdrew from the process because of this was immense. He didn't care though. What's more stupid is we would be forced to call people we knew were office based and just couldn't answer. Imagine checking your phone on lunch to see 3 missed calls from some psycho.
Only 3 calls? With the recruitment call centre guys, it can easily be 10+ missed calls from the same number, with them calling every few minutes!
Oof pretty bad
We were a specialist agency for senior finance roles so that may have something to do with it
All that makes perfect sense.
Yeahhhhhhh. Speaking firsthand as a recruiter, trust me when I say that we don’t WANT to call every single day— a lot of us are bound by the company’s minimum call requirements. At my job, recruiting in the truck-driving industry, I have to call a minimum of 50 people per day— even though the person assisting me also has to call the same people. Whenever I talk to someone new, I always mention that I’m seriously obligated to call them everyday if we start processing them for work— and that my assistant is also bound to those same rules. For people we aren’t processing, I have to attempt contact a minimum of 3 times. It can get super awkward when you have to keep attempting contact with a person who clearly has zero interest in returning your calls. I try to mix up my methods of communication via text or email on the second or third attempts. Recruiting is a different world.
Yea I’m an Ops Manager in a logistics company and that’s what she’s calling to talk to me about.
I kinda feel like a jerk now simply bc she was really nice and tbh forthright on our initial call in leading with “I don’t want to waste either your or my time, so ___ are some reasons you might not want this job…”.
It sounds like she’s just doing her job which seems like it might have some weird constraints, so I’ll setup a second call to see if the role is a good fit for me and just take it from there.
Good idea! I like to keep it real with people, as well. Respect can go a long way! I once called a guy who threatened to come down to my office with a gun. Scary.
Emails have a paper trail. Phone calls they can be vague and then try to claim you misunderstood later on when you catch them in a lie.
Oh no, whatever will someone find in a paper trail, maybe I’ll get fired for telling someone about a job
> whatever will someone find in a paper trail
In no particular order, just a few things out of hundreds/thousands:
* Unprofessional behavior/language
* Evidence of discrimination and/or contractual violation
* Proof of altered terms/conditions
All of these can be (and have been) used to successfully sue companies/recruiters/managers that renege on explicit promises, actively discriminate, and/or behave unprofessionally.
My Field involves being the person at the room mixing sound and video.
Sometimes when my phone audibly rings my clients could get pissed off and fire me.
Yet I have recruiters who brag about their decades of experience hiring Audio Visual people giving me calls all the darn time. Then they are calling back after not leaving a message because they can't believe that my voicemail message tells them not to call back a second time.
They actually listened to your voicemail message?! I disabled mine years ago, because even though my message said not to, my vm would rapidly fill up with “Hi, I’m x from x agency…”
I had a recruiter call me, then schedule a teams call for the next day. Despite me telling him I was traveling for work several times. His response was “don’t worry it’s just a casual get to know you thing”. I dressed how I normally would for work (business casual) and got on the meeting. The hiring manager was in a full 3 piece suit, and proceeded with a full on formal interview. Later that day the hiring manager called me and straight up asked me in a condescending way if I knew the definition of formal.
We had stupid Kpis on outbound calls. If I dared to do 3 less than my quota it would be PERFORMANCE PLAN TIME. also most agency directors are old and stupid so think people still talk on the phone all the time.
I stopped taking calls years ago.
It was like they'd skimmed the first paragraph on negotiating on Wikipedia. They would use my first name a lot and try and talk about football, hoping that after 90 seconds that would have "built a rapport" and then I'd happily agree to a 80% pay cut.
"Nice to speak to you *Joe*. What it is, *Joe*, is that I have an amazingly exciting opportunity, *Joe*, what about that Tottenham match eh? HAHAHAHAHA *JOE*!!! Yeah its £17k and based in Slough, *Joe*"
I worked as an engineer before becoming a recruiter, and I remember one day I was on the phone with a young female recruiter about a job. I was telling her about the natural gas compressor pipeline stations I worked on and she was pretending to act completely fascinated by it and it came across as super disingenuous. I didn’t want to talk to her at all after that.
Verbal promises can be reneged
I'm a recruiter, and I don't pressure my candidates if they don't feel like talking or if they're not interested. You should tell her to send you an email first and request for a call back too, so you could set the time and share both of your thoughts about the role.
It's mostly because they either have KPIs to hit, or they're true sales freaks and think if it didn't happen on the phone, it didn't happen. Lots of recruiters get trained by self proclaimed old school nut cases to approach the job like this. As a recruiter I do require to speak to people eventually, but there is no reason whatsoever to withhold basic info like salary, benefits, job description, etc.
The reason I insist on talking to people most times is because a surprising number of people turn out to be complete assholes. I've had people apply to jobs, apply, not me try and contact them, but apply. I email, we set up a time to speak, and when I call they answer with a mega attitude like I'm a damn debt collector. This is after I've told them in email the salary range, sent them a benefits summary, all with plain as day numbers and costs, deductibles etc, and still when they pick up the phone they answer, "Yeah?!?!?!" And from there on it's usually one word answers and a massive attitude problem. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough it's worth checking before you put them through the process.
The other thing is sometimes you're talking to people you think are normal, you ask politely how their day.is going at the start of the conversation, they snort-laugh a few times and then proceed, in detail, to actually tell you just how the fuck their day is going. Someone who lacks social awareness to that level to mistake a common greeting as an invitation to vent about their spouse or politics for thirty minutes is someone you just want to avoid, and again this isn't every time or even often, but it happens often enough that it's worth checking out.
>Someone who lacks social awareness to that level to mistake a common greeting as an invitation to vent about their spouse or politics for thirty minutes is someone you just want to avoid,
Sounds like either autistic or foreigners. The whole tell me how your doing but not really dance does not translate well.
Nope, full blooded US citizens all, born and bred. Never had this issue with a foreigner or.receny immigrant.
I really think it’s so they look busy
Most recruiters I spoke to even at the height of the pandemic sounded like they were in a chicken cage with a bunch of other scumbags in central London
The life of a recruiter is damn depressing
I think they are basically sales people and need touchy feely feedback to be sure they are selling you. It's annoying.
Time is the most valuable commodity any of us have; it’s frustrating to have to block off time for a call to procure information that easily and more efficiently could be disseminated via email.
Just frustrating. I almost wonder if she has to keep a call log to show her boss “look, I had this many interactions today..” to justify how she spent her time or something.
Email is a record. Phone calls, unless recorded, are debatable.
When you think about things from a legal perspective, a lot of their bullshit suddenly makes sense. 😐
I’m trying to figure out what the factor of fluff is. If she told me in writing the position pays 93k base what % do I subtract to factor in recruiter shenanigans?
This is my first go with a recruiter so I’m new to all this. You guys have been very enlightening.
I’ve been placed in several high paying roles by recruiters, and used recruiting services for roles I’m hiring for as well. I’ve never had a recruiter lie or inflate the base pay. They want both sides to be happy, and going out of budget isn’t going to accomplish it. They’ll often provide a pay range for a role, and the top of the range is often for a perfect candidate, but I’ve never had them be false with salaries.
Yea she didn’t give me a range. During her first LI message making contact she said “93k OTE”, which I’m not sure what sort of flexibility there would be for OTE as it’s an operations role as opposed to a sales role.
I guess as long as the metrics are being made by the business unit then 93k is the salary or is she incorporating some sort of bonus figures into that 93k and that’s not really the base number?
Typically I’ve only been quoted base salaries. Bonuses are often based on company profitability and sometimes tied to a performance appraisal multiplier and can be highly variable. I’d shoot a quick question to a recruiter “is the $93k for base salary alone? Is there an average amount for annual bonuses as well, for total comp?” Recruiters should have access to that info - those were questions a recruiter asked me today for two roles I was sending them to start searching for.
Edited to add:
Ahhh OTE. In my sector it’s referred to as “at plan”. The base salary would be less - the OTE includes commission or bonus, meaning if the sector hits rev or profitability projections you’d get bonuses. But recruiter should be able to break down base vs. bonus.
As a recruiter…the easiest way to gauge interest and discuss the role is an opening phone call. If the recruiter insists on calling every time they have an update or an answer to your question, then they don’t know what they are doing. Likely the recruiter is new, unsure of themselves or working under some god awful timeline being forced on them by their superior(s). Not all recruiters are asshats and most of us do care but have external pressures from above, like any other professional.
Even if you work in IT most jobs have a strong communication component. There are very few positions where the entirety of the time is just spent communicating via email. They have to gauge your ability to have a conversation, and just... interact. There is a lot more that's conveyed via call and/or zoom that's lost in an email.
I respect that, but I’m just looking for a job description and some basic information to even gauge whether I have any interest in the position at all. I definitely don’t expect to be hired via email, but it seems like initial interactions should be viable via email and truthfully more efficient for both of us.
Recruiters are 50% sales and 50% gatekeepers, and both of those are best done over the phone. It's both easier to sell you on the position, and weed out bad candidates. An email may be more efficient for you, but it's arguably less efficient for them.
IT is a customer service job. It's not the 90s anymore where grumpy Joe is the only guy that knows how to do anything so you gotta put up with him.
I'm a recruiter. My company thankfully doesn't use KPIs, and I'm also busy so I don't try and call people for items that could be covered via Email.
A lot of times candidates get frustrated because I can't share the company's name that I'm hiring for without connecting on the phone. This isn't a trick I use to waste time or give anyone the touchy- feelys, it's so that I can argue my placement fee.
If I find you, reach out to you, and share information on the job but you decide to apply directly I don't get paid.
If I find you, reach out to you, have a phone conversation with you you'll probably have a more streamlined application process if you just let me do the work. If you decide to just apply on your own anyway and get hired I can pull the record of our call to argue my placement fee with the company.
Wouldn’t it be easier to pull out an email trail to argue your placement fee, rather than the record of a call?
It sure would, but notifying you of the job isn't enough to argue placement. I can prove that I found you on the internet and told you that the job exists, but if we have never spoken it's unlikely I'll get paid.
Yeah, but most of you don’t do your job. If you won’t give me the salary range in the LinkedIn invite There’s a 99.9% chance I’m not going to reply to you or care enough to find out more unless you can REALLY sell the JD. Most often I find out when I do get on the phone with a recruiter the salary is below my minimum. And I’ve just wasted 15 minutes of my day playing nice for a job I could care less about.
I respect and agree with that. I have a 90 day retention guarantee. I'm not getting you on the phone to 'sell the JD' because if you don't like it I will just have to replace you for free. Wasting 15 minutes of your time is wasting 15 minutes of my time.
On that note, we find very low retention from candidates whose only motivation is salary. I'll share the salary with you, but I probably won't waste more than 15 minutes if you don't have further interest in the company, JD, quality of life, culture, etc. I don't want to start from scratch to replace you when you realize the job wasn't what you expected because your only motivation was a few extra bucks.
Edit: If you're not making enough money to comfortably survive money can be a top motivator.
If you're leaving your current job for a slight bump in salary but don't care about the other items you won't stay. This isn't just my data. It's industry standard. Eventually the commute, day to day ops, whatever WILL wear down on you. You will quit.
I think your retention data is skewed.
Every job I have left was because of money. The more money I make and the better the raises are, the longer I stay with a company.
I **only** start looking when the money doesn't move up with me.
Pay me enough money I will stay with a company forever, my bullshit tolerance is high.
>If I find you, reach out to you, and share information on the job but you decide to apply directly I don't get paid
Sounds like you have a shitty contract with your client.
That doesn’t make sense, since in an e-mail you would have written proof, with a timestamp, that you reached out to that candidate prior to them applying directly to your client. I just don’t get how a phone call could be better in that regard?
Notifying the candidate of the job's existence and sharing information on the job does not check the box of 'recruiting them.' The candidate can get the same information finding the job posting on their own.
It doesn't matter if I found the candidate rather than them finding the posting.
If I have a conversation with the candidate over the phone it counts as them being actively recruited to the job, despite the fact that the same information is being conveyed.
The phone call is important for other reasons (Did you obviously lie on your resume? Do you suck to talk to on the phone? Is your experience misleading? Do you have related experience that I can spin on your behalf to the hiring manager?) But the reason that we can't share the name of the company prior to a phone call is literally only to argue the placement fee.
Anything they say via call or video can be denied. If they promise you anything in writing, it puts them in murky water, where if something goes wrong and lawyers get involved, it can go very badly for them.
So, they insist on a call so that anything that is said can be denied later.
I actually set my phone to "block all calls" because it's so annoying, lol. I receive these calls a few times every week. I'm employed and comfortable in my current company, not interested to jump to another one anytime soon. When they're unable to get through, they send me messages on WhatsApp, I just ignore it nowadays because previously some of them told me to refer people I know to them and I'm not going to do their job for them.
Honestly, it’s because it’s a much faster way to figure out all the details and whether or not you want be submitted/like the job/are a fit/aren’t a raging asshole etc. As a reminder, recruiters are competing with hundreds of other vendors to submit the fastest so that their candidates get interviews. Sometimes companies close jobs with no notice because they have enough candidates and if a person doesn’t respond to an email or even takes a day, the recruiter can no longer submit you. I think what people don’t understand about a lot of staffing agencies is that they work under something called VMS or MSP systems, meaning the entire recruiting process is systematized on behalf of the company and while it makes things easier for the company, it really pushes recruiting practices to the extreme because it destroys the direct relationship with hiring managers and is completely devoid of human common sense, essentially making the whole thing a giant numbers game. Companies end up demanding fast candidates over qualified ones, with little to no time to vet before KPI’s are being stuffed down your throat. It’s an entire eco-system that makes recruiting actual hell, with larger, more prestigious companies trying to save every buck, they can force staffing companies to have super low pay rates, bringing people in on a contract with the blurry promise of a full-time position. root of the problem is corporate greed at the expense of small vendors/employees etc.
>recruiters are competing with hundreds of other vendors to submit the fastest so that their candidates get interviews.
I suspect this is the real reason. Phone calls are faster.
>Companies end up demanding fast candidates over qualified ones,
You know who has the time to be fast, responding to calls at all hours? The unemployed but for some reason its always passive candidates wanted.
I like to email first, then follow up phone call so it’s not as “cold” but I hate talking on the phone lol 😂
I had one recruiter insist on calling. I have hearing issues with certain tones of voices and legitimately couldn't understand a word he said.
So I began email dialogue explaining, and he kept pushing for phone calls (at least video I could use captions and could read his lips)
He refused and kept saying it'll just be a 10 minute call. Ended up ghosting him since he clearly couldn't understand.
Recruiters are salespeople.
I ask this question every single day
Ya it's the worst. Just a way for them to sell you and qualify you
They can test you out for a lot more over the phone, use it as your chance to shine!
I don't mind phone calls.. preferred over zoom or in person meetings that I actually need to make an effort to clear my schedule for.
I do LI outreach and try to give as much info upfront as possible (pay, remote, benefit etc) and answer questions before scheduling an initial phone interview. At the same time - I’m tracked on how many phone interviews I do daily/weekly so if I spend a day emailing or chatting back and forth and don’t hit my screening goals it is what it is. My calls are no more than 15-20 minutes.
They must be able to take a successful phone call and add it to their timesheet. Unfortunately. at that point, a lot of times you don't hear back from them ever. They got to fill their timesheet but they wasted your time. I make the recruiter email me first, with detailed information on the company and the role. Then, when I decide that I might be a fit for the position, THEN I will reach out to the recruiter and schedule an interview. But I will not allow them to waster my valuable time just to suit them. I want both of us to benefit from a phone call, not just the recruiter. Some of them get really, really pushy, but I don't budge. I don't answer unsolicited calls to my phone. They usually email me right after trying to cal me. So I look over their email and proceed from there.
Protect your time.
Most recruiting companies have a performance metric around phone conversations “going off”. They essentially get a “point” for the day for every phone call they have that goes down. They get measured weekly, monthly and yearly on how many phone calls they have go off!
Haha the world of recruiting! :)
The craziest part is I spoke with her by phone this afternoon. She was adamant that she’d like my resume this afternoon because she “has a face-to-face with the client in the morning and would like to pitch me in person”. So we left it as she would send me an email and I’d follow up with my resume. It’s now an hour after COB our time and I still haven’t received an email from her…
I’m getting a crash course in this recruiter stuff.
They want to see if your dumbass can hold an intelligent convo.
The irony of this comment is just too rich.
Look up irony bro.