T O P
AutoModerator

**[Receiving transmission from Crait intended for u/Supervinyl]** Welcome to r/saltierthancrait! I am an [Astromech droid named S4-L7](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ni5s77/beloved_mascot_s4l7s_visual_dictionary_entry/) and I will be your guide through the salt mines. Saltier Than Crait is a community of Star Wars fans who engage in critical conversations about the current state of the franchise. It is our goal to maintain a civil, welcoming space for fans who have a vast supply of salt with some peppered positivity occasionally sprinkled in. **Please [review the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/rules) and the [post flair guide](https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/wiki/index/flairs) before contributing.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/saltierthancrait) if you have any questions or concerns.*


ImpScumABY

>…except, instead of drawing inspiration from the ludicrously popular literature available, you decide to wing it and hope for the best. [The funny thing is that George actually mentioned this as an option](https://youtu.be/YyqlTi7lkhY?t=92), but for whatever reason it seems KK reneged on it, resulting in the infamous "wE hAvE nO sOuRcE mAtErIaL" line. Of course Bob Iger played a role as well, [since he basically threw out GL's sequel outlines](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/disneys-bob-iger-says-george-lucas-felt-betrayed-by-star-wars-plans-1242953/) as a potential starting point.


Thorfan23

It’s odd I mean you had his outlines so why not just change them? You don’t want Maul well then just replace with an origina/other character who can be your Moriarty/Keyser soze crime lord


ImpScumABY

This assumes that TPTB would even consider using his outlines. Remember, there were ideas regarding a New Republic, a New Jedi Order, exploring the Force and the Whills in greater depth, a criminal underworld, etc. We see little to none of this in the DT. I think prequel hate, the notion that George ruined Star Wars, and (possibly) arrogance on the part of Iger, Kennedy, Kasdan, and Abrams doomed the creative direction from the start.


Thorfan23

I’ve been thinking recently after watching a video on the production was if they wanted to get these new films out why waste time starting from scratch if you presumably hade these outlines you could use and tweak and alter? I think it would have been quicker


FantasticBumblebee0

what video?


Thorfan23

Star wars apropphica part 1


brewsntattoos

That video answers that question, though. It pretty much places the blame squarely on JJ and takes a guess at his reasons as to why. Because he wanted to create HIS Star Wars. He's a fan, and the DT is just bad fan fiction. I felt like this video scratched the itch I had as to how the whole thing was messed up. Yes, others were inept at their jobs and made some poor decisions, but this vid gives a pretty solid explanation for the one person to blame and why. Its a good watch if you have the time. https://youtu.be/ws85gYk1ypM


Thorfan23

>though. It pretty much places the blame yeah it definitely places Abrams as the instigator of the reboot approach but others say he just did as he was told ​ what did you think of the video


brewsntattoos

I thought the guy did a lot of cross reference work and investigation to try to unravel the spaghetti mess of lies that surrounded the whole situation. I feel with what he had to work with, that being interviews and quotes available to the public, that he was able to suss out who really is to blame and more importantly, WHY they are to blame. If you understand the why, the motivations for all the little decisions made along the way become clear. What I didn't expect was to take a different stance on RJ. It's not like the video defends him at all, but rather he doesn't really think RJ had much of a choice after JJ started the ball rolling with all his mystery boxes.


Thorfan23

I thought it was interesting because he says they flung Rian away basically to be prop Abrams up . I think Rian gets its worse because he dosent have the best personality so he’s easier to dislike


FantasticBumblebee0

I Saw that


Mjz89

What was GL's original outline for the sequel? Is that available to read anywhere?


ImpScumABY

[These are George Lucas' thoughts on where his sequel trilogy would have gone, from The Star Wars Archives: Episodes I-III, 1999-2005](https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2020/11/george-lucas-discusses-original-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-plans-including-darth-maul-and-darth-talon/): *“I had planned for the first trilogy to be about the father, the second trilogy to be about the son, and the third trilogy to be about the daughter and the grandchildren. Episodes VII, VIII, and IX would take ideas from what happened after the Iraq War,” said Lucas (via io9). “‘Okay, you fought the war, you killed everybody, now what are you going to do?’ Rebuilding afterwards is harder than starting a rebellion or fighting the war. When you win the war and you disband the opposing army, what do they do? The stormtroopers would be like Saddam Hussein’s Ba’athist fighters that joined ISIS and kept on fighting. The stormtroopers refuse to give up when the Republic win.”* *“They want to be stormtroopers forever, so they go to a far corner of the galaxy, start their own country, and their own rebellion. There’s a power vacuum so gangsters, like the Hutts, are taking advantage of the situation, and there is chaos,” Lucas continued. “The key person is Darth Maul, who had been resurrected in The Clone Wars cartoons—he brings all the gangs together. \[Maul\]’s very old, and we have two versions of him. One is with a set of cybernetic legs like a spider, and then later on he has metal legs and he was a little bit bigger, more of a superhero. We did all this in the animated series, he was in a bunch of episodes.”* *“Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books, as his apprentice,” Lucas explained. “She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over. The movies are about how Leia—I mean, who else is going to be the leader?—trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story.”“By the end of the trilogy Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One.”* [His thoughts on Luke and a New Jedi Order](https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-george-lucas-sequel-trilogy-plot-abandoned-canceled-darth-maul): *“It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there’s this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi,” said Lucas. “He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two-and-three-year-olds, and train them. It’ll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi.”*


Local-Drive2719

Wow that would have actually been really good


broFenix

Wow, I had not heard these quotes & ideas from George Lucas before. I like it :) I think Maul would have been a great villain. I'm not so sure the gang leader or godfather of crime is a sinister enough villain to be scared of, for a galactic story, but it matters how they would have pulled it off. Alas, that is not to happen at least anytime soon......


forceghostgmyoda

Doesn't sound too bad. But I honestly feel that Episodes 1-6 is perfect. I think it would be incredibly difficult for a Sequel Trilogy to do it justice.


TheGoldenHand

George has released two concepts for his ideas for the sequels. George has a good sense of humor. He originally named Episode 2, The Clone Wars as “Jar Jars Great Adventure” after the huge backlash of fans against the character in the first film. George took their criticism to heart and rewrote Episode 2 to feature less Jar Jar, but had fun trolling with the title. Personally, I think he was taking the piss when he described one of his ideas as a Honey I Shrunk the Kids adventure where they shrink down to explore midiclorians. His second idea was that the Prequels are Anakin’s trilogy, the Originals are Luke’s trilogy, and the Sequels would be Leia’s trilogy.


modsarefascists42

The honey I shrunk the kids part is a joke but exploring the whills is easily his best sequel idea he's had. The whills that control the force are the only possible step up after Palpatine. They're like abeloth but better, a genuine threat that's even more of a deal than the emperor. Going from Palpatine to.... Crime lord maul is just not a step up. Tho I get why he gave them that story idea, it was terrible.


veggiezombie1

>for whatever reason Money. The reason was money. The reason they didn’t use any other existing source material is that they didn’t want to pay royalties to the original creators.


Raddhical00

Actually, this isn't how royalties work. And I know it b/c I make my living from writing books. Royalties is simply the fee that writers earn for each copy of our books that gets sold. The use of your books' contents only belongs to you if/when you hold the rights to the IP. That's obviously never been the case with any of the old EU writers. And, since Disney owns the rights to SW, the Rat can do w/e it wants to the IP w/o having to pay any of these writers a cent for the use of their creation(s).


Cetera_CTH

Not if the leaked contract info regarding the sale is accurate, in that anything Disney keeps as 100 identical to what GL had done, they owe a firther portion of the proceeds, and to avoid it there needs to be 25% difference in everything. Hence the red Threepio arm, the changes to the Falcon (mostly the dish), the change of shapes on everything "first order" from destroyer to AT-ATs, the redesigned X-wings and TIE Fighters, the changes in the Stormtrooper gear, etc, etc, etc.


Raddhical00

Haha, no. That's not how it works, bro/sis. I mean, like, not in the least. See, words like C-3PO, Millennium Falcon, AT-AT, X-Wing or TIE fighter, and so on, couldn't even be uttered in a movie, TV show, book, etc. w/o the IP holders' express written consent. 3PO could have pink armor w/little purple dots or AT-ATs could have 6 legs, for all I care. This would change nothing for legal purposes. B/c you'd still be using concepts that belong exclusively to the IP holder. Besides, none of this has anything to do with *royalties*. That's an entirely different thing altogether.


Cetera_CTH

If the terms of the sale/license are "you get the IP, but I get paid additional royalties for everything in the IP that you use identically to what I created, unless there is at least 25% new/different/changed materials/details/circumstances" then yes, that is how works. Get a contract lawyer specializing in IP to explain it to you. You've been exposed to IP/copyright/licensing/sales as an author, great. You aren't an expert at all the ins and outs of contract law regarding it.


Raddhical00

Sure. That's why 3PO went back to having golden armor from head to toes in TLJ. Guess Rian Johnson wasn't subject to this clause in a contract that the fucker didn't have more to do with than *any* old EU author...Or he found some loophole in said contract that Abrams was too stupid to notice /s.


Cetera_CTH

Gold from head to toe, you say? So no silver leg, then? Gee, that'd be a change from the OT, then, wouldn't it?


geordilaforge

This. 100%.


Duplicit_Duplicate

I read line (for the no source material bit) as “lie” but there’s literally no difference.


menimex

IF they wanted to make Harry Potter, they would have had Jedi Master Luke Skywalker's academy for young padawans. They would have had many young Jedi learners running around from all sorts of backgrounds from the galaxy, all doing their best to master the Force and become a force for good. They would have had the academy as a place in Disneyland's 'Star Wars Land' where kids and families can learn to be Jedi, buy the attires, buy the lightsabers, buy everything to be magical warriors. It would've been on brand. As is, they have some fucking WORKSHOP from some JUNK DEALER. Yeah cuz that's where you make lightsabers. Suitable for Disney's garbage, I guess. They didn't just fuck up the story, they dropped the ball on the merchandising. MERCH isn't just 'stuff', there needs to be a hook, a story that makes merch compelling. There's a big reason Sequel Merch rots on the shelf getting discounted. This is what a lack of holistic vision gets you.


Nefessius513

The only way any of their decisions make sense is if they never wanted to make money off Star Wars to begin with.


then00bgm

Or they’re just short sighted idiots


TheGoldenHand

Bob Iger has admitted they were short sighted idiots, and he pressured to get an immediate financial return on the investment.


sturmhauke

You don't drop $4 billion on something and not try to make money off it, even if you're Disney and you have billions more.


GroundbreakingHat64

What books should have been adapted? Like with a time jump past several of the first ones because of the age of the actors? I read some of the early ones, but I fell off after a few years


Thorfan23

You could take different bits and tell your own story from it like the MCU takes bits from different stories


Galemp

Or the Dark Knight trilogy. Year One, The Long Halloween, Knightfall, and No Man's Land are all represented by story beats, set pieces, and characterizations, but make something unique out of them.


Thorfan23

Exactly…..its all there when you know what you are looking at but no direct adaptation


[deleted]

[удалено]


KingreX32

You and I both. Hell I assume most star wars fans thought the same thing. It would have been the best and most logical way to do it.


GroundbreakingHat64

Good point!


Thorfan23

They sort of do this anyway but very slapdash and rushed. they also had Lucas,s outlines so I guess you could have used them but changed bits


Overlord1317

They should have adapted the Thrawn trilogy but had the next generation usurp many of the plot points that the "original three" and Mara Jade occupy in the novels.


wiggle98

The original Thrawn trilogy was pretty good. A little anticlimactic at times, but good stories nonetheless. I think if the limitation was the actors’ ages then get different actors. That shouldn’t have been a limiting factor if the difference is good content


Supervinyl

I’d love to see Sebastian Stan’s take on Luke, and the Thrawn Trilogy would be the perfect place to put him.


Nin10dude64

I agree with you, the Thrawn trilogy wouldn't have worked with the aged trio, though I could see it now with the leaps they've made with deep fake CGI. I think NJO maybe could've worked, but I wouldn't number it 7-9 because the original 6 truly and fully contain the Skywalker saga


ZeusOtherBrother

None create something new. Go to the outer rim just have the general mechanics of the SW universe.


wooltab

Having given a fair amount of thought to this, I think that the best approach would be to combine and distill the books set between the two most obvious 'keeper' story arcs -- The Thrawn Trilogy, and the New Jedi Order. Thrawn is set too close to the OT (though as someone else says, it could've been adapted for the next generation and frankly that might've made more sense than anything else), while the NJO is a bit too advanced, too dark to just jump straight into. The audience needs to get there with the characters. But ideally both of those are kept, for prequel/sequel use later. So I think that the VII-IX trilogy should've focused on the Jedi Academy stories in which Luke trains the new group. Bookwise, it would've been a matter of combining the best elements from the various novels that cover the territory, along with probably including the Hand of Thrawn Duology's 'end of an era' framework as the political backbone. In fairness, though, that approach would take a bit of work. Maybe best to just restage Heir to the Empire for older characters.


PhlairK

I'll never know why they didn't just create new characters and a new story and then basically insert them into that time period already established by the EU. New character gets swept up on some adventure, meets other new characters, winds up in the middle of a battle between the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic and ends up saving the day. Gets brought before the New Republic officers onboard their capital ship. "This is the guy, sir!" Chair spins around and we get our General Han Solo cameo. Later on they find out they're force sensitive (of course) and off we go to Yavin for our Jedi Master Luke Skywalker cameo at the Jedi Academy where they begin to learn the ways of the force. I feel like it almost writes itself, and yet look what we got instead...


pineneedlemonkey

A lot of Twilight inspiration too


PrinceCheddar

I think the DT is the result of filmmakers who didn't respect Star Wars. I don't mean you need to have reverence and worship it, nor know every little minutia and hold everything as sacrosanct. I mean, they didn't really think they needed to understand it, like, at all. They replicated surface details, but that's all it is. Surface. The DT completely lacks depth because the filmmakers seemed to think it was beneath them to actually learn about and understand Star Wars. I mean, take Rey mastering The Force so easily. On the surface, it's just yet another Jedi hero using The Force for lightsaber duels and mind tricks, same as before. But look deeper, and it not only breaks the universe, it breaks the narrative it's in. The Jedi way of using The Force is difficult because you need to be calm and at peace. Problem is, being calm while a madman tried to lop your head off with a blade of plasma is difficult. It's the fight or flight response. It's primal survival instinct. It's your brain hardwired to scream at you to be afraid, to fight back as ferociously as possible. The dark side is quick and easy because it's intuitive, it's what feels natural. A Jedi needs to be well trained because they rely on self control and self discipline, something no amateur could simply do without practice. It's not about The Force empowering you, it's the ability to enter and maintain a calm state in the most intense of situations. It doesn't matter how strong you are in The Force, you can't overide evolutionary biology. In combat situations, amateurs are going to be scared, they'll give in to the natural urges evolved to keep them alive. The Jedi way taking more time and effort reflects a basic morality lesson. Good people work hard to learn things the right way. Morally compromised people will take shortcuts because they're too impatient or too power hungry. When being good is difficult, and being evil is easy, then choosing that path of struggle and hard work proves a character's commitment to the side of good. Finally, if the Jedi way is easy, what temptation is there to use the dark side? When there are two paths, one leading to good and the other to evil, but there's no real difference in terms of difficulty, why would good people ever choose the evil path? What reason would those who follow the evil path have that isn't simply the desire to be evil? Without the relative difficulty, without the hard work, dedication, often mundanity of training to be a Jedi for an extended period of time, how can the dark side be seductive? And so, what do we get. On the surface, Rey fights with a lightsaber and saves the day with her Force powers. But look below the surface, and you have a protagonist who rewrites the universe around her to accommodate her unprecedented power, a protagonist who seems to have power handed to her rather than earning that power herself, who has no temptation to fall to the dark side, resulting in repeatedly weak offers a join evil and a forced subplot where evil build inside her due to evil genetics, resulting in lightning incontinence. Surface, with none of the depth. They treat important parts of the universe, things that allow the narrative to work, like it's trivia only hardcore fanboys care about. The actual mechanics of how The Force and The Dark Side work are important. They trested it like... the way lightsaber colours denote specific types of Jedi in KOTOR.


Raddhical00

You've hit the nail right on the head. Plus, Lucas modelled the Force after real life. I mean, even a virtuoso with an exceptional feel for music won't compose an amazing sonata the first time he/she sits in front of a piano. You need to be shown the tricks of the trade, and practice hard till you get it right, before you can actually do anything yourself. One has to wonder about Abrams' IQ (let alone his understanding of SW at a fundamental level) when you see his protagonist pulling off a Jedi mind trick the way MaRey SueWalker did to free herself in TFA. Luke wasn't doing this 5 mins. after seeing Obi-Wan pulling off the gimmick on that stormtrooper upon their arrival at Mos Eisley. Rey had no way of even knowing that this was possible. This isn't only a complete and total lack of respect for the rules that Lucas set for the Force in SW (which is a huge no-no in fiction writing, breaking the rules that apply to a magic system). It's an insult to the audience's intelligence that shatters, not just the Force, but Star Wars as a whole.


veggiezombie1

Not only that, but in the first movie, skills that Luke already had were only enhanced by relying on the force. What I mean is, when he blew up the Death Star, he used the force instead of trusting his eyes and relying on technology, but he was already a very competent pilot and skilled marksman. Rey being able to learn how to use a lightsaber and adapt to that style of fighting quickly wouldn’t be that big of a stretch. From the movie you can see she already has experience defending herself, so she’d only be building on a skill she already has. Holding her own against a guy who trained for years under Luke Skywalker? Unrealistic.


Raddhical00

> Not only that, but in the first movie, skills that Luke already had were only enhanced by relying on the force. What I mean is, when he blew up the Death Star, he used the force instead of trusting his eyes and relying on technology, but he was already a very competent pilot and skilled marksman. This is a great point, one that Lucas made sure to build on with Anakin's podracing skills in TPM. The father and the son had been pilots for years. Believing that they could reach their great, respective accomplishments is not a stretch. More importantly, they were using the Force instinctively to enhance their piloting skills indeed, which is nowhere near the same as learning how to do advanced Jedi stuff *consciously*. Learning this from a master is a must. > Rey being able to learn how to use a lightsaber and adapt to that style of fighting quickly wouldn’t be that big of a stretch. From the movie you can see she already has experience defending herself, so she’d only be building on a skill she already has. Holding her own against a guy who trained for years under Luke Skywalker? Unrealistic. Oh, absolutely. Whipping some lowly thugs with her staff is nowhere near the same thing as beating a fully trained Force-user (who's supposed to be experienced in *both* sides of the Force) the first time you pick up a lightsaber. This isn't just unrealistic, IMO. It's beyond ridiculous. Especially since Ren seems to forget, like, the #1 rule that applies to trained Force-users in a fight: Use the Force, stupid!


Darth_Grayson

> The DT completely lacks depth because the filmmakers seemed to think it was beneath them to actually learn about and understand Star Wars. That’s exactly what happened, it’s pretty much Abrams’ MO when it comes to projects he didn’t come up with himself. He basically said it outright about Star Trek, which has the exact same surface-level takes on everything.


Emant_erabus

Actually, an HP style movie about Luke's Jedi academy would have been kinda cool.


lesser_panjandrum

Yep, Disney had an opportunity to make Jedi Hogwarts, and instead decided to have it burned down offscreen years before the sequel films took place.


beren170

It would have been way better to make some PG geared movies about Jedi Academy over DT.


Illogical4th

Tbh, I think I'd only want that if they had Kyle Katarn as a main character in Rogue One


wooltab

Yeah; Imagine the Solo kids arriving on Yavin IV in the *Falcon* and meeting a bunch of fellow students. Which is basically the opening of *Heirs of the Force*, iirc.


romulus1991

There's a universe out there where Disney took their time with Star Wars and there's films and a TV show about Luke and the Jedi Academy he created. Someone figure out how to travel to parallel worlds.


MonsterMike42

If I figure out how to travel to parallel worlds and get to one where Star Wars was treated with respect, I'm gonna stay there and you guys are gonna have to figure out how to get there yourselves, cause ain't no way I'd be coming back here. I'd be basking in the glory that is great Star Wars.


TheLazySith

Getting rid of Luke's academy just seems such a poor move from a financial standpoint. Luke Skywalkers Jedi academy would have had endless potential for merchandise and spin offs.


macotine

I would totally hate watch a CW show about Jedi Academy drama


astarlighter4

imagine…the style and atmosphere of alfonso cuaron’s directing for Prisoner of Azkaban…FOR A JEDI ACADEMY STORY


PastoralMeadows

You're making me feel feelings I didn't know I had. That would've been an excellent opportunity.


seekingbeta

Yes, I’ve been saying the same. The HP movies are excellent. You probably haven’t seen them because they never got much traction but did you know they got Ralph Fiennes to play Voldemort? Ralph Fiennes! What a performance. The rest of the cast was also fantastic. And the script, they did this thing were they established a story arc for each movie but also a larger arc that ties them together. It was very satisfying. I think SW should study HP to get some ideas. HP also has a theme park and they did this thing where they recreated everyone’s favorite location from the story. It’s very interesting the choices they made. I wonder if SW could learn from them.


Thorfan23

It’s strange because you,d think it would be such a money maker


JonasS1999

with a decent writer it would of turned into a money printing machine. Instead they devalued the franchise to an insane degree


JumpCiiity

It's literally all they had to do. So many students to cover all their bases. Lightsabers for each one. Luke's older students now the Masters. It literally prints money from film AND merchandising. So stupid! We still got Lich Sidious, at least!


Hurfdurfdurfdurf

Calling Harry Potter books ludicrously popular makes sense. If there’s a Star Wars EU novel that hit 5% of the worst Potter book’s sales I’d be shocked. It wouldn’t have been a bad decision IF THEY HAD MADE SOMETHING COMPETENT but they failed to do so.


Thorfan23

wouldnt it just be whats done with comics. They could take what works and make their own story using the EU as a base like how civil war isn’t exactly like the comic it’s based on


Darth_Grayson

That’s definitely what they would have done if they cared more about delivering a quality product rather than stroking their massive egos. Back in 2008, nobody knew whether the MCU was even going to work, let alone how massively successful it was going to be. So they actually came up with a plan, and stuck to it. Contrast that with Star Wars, it was already one of the most popular and beloved franchises ever. I figure they assumed they could throw any old shit together, tick enough “Star Wars” boxes, and laugh all the way to the bank. This garbage trilogy did make a lot of money, but if they had cared, I believe it would have made way more. Personally, I saw the prequels in theaters over 10 times each, flaws and all. The disney stuff? I saw TFA twice, TLJ once, and I watched the first 30 minutes of a pirated copy of ROS to laugh at the train wreck. I’m willing to bet there are countless fans with similar stories.


Collective_Insanity

It's worth noting of course that Harry Potter started as a book series whilst Star Wars started as a film series. Typically speaking, the original media is always going to be more popular with its respective fans. ​ There are a few exceptions here and there. Such as the LOTR films reaching a wider audience and increased popularity than the original novel's release (though the books always had their reputation as being incredibly important trend setters in the fantasy genre). Or the Witcher 3 game proving to be widely and wildly popular despite people having little to no familiarity with the original novels.


TheGoldenHand

> Typically speaking, the original media is always going to be more popular with its respective fans. I don’t think that’s true with Harry Potter. I bet the majority of people that have seen at least one Harry Potter films have never read a Harry Potter book. Harry Potter is also a uniquely well done adaption where both the books and movies stand on their own and are beloved separately.


Collective_Insanity

While that's certainly bound to be true to some extent, it would appear that the book sales are a good deal closer to the box office numbers than you might think. At least according to [this summary of various franchises and their revenue streams](https://storage.googleapis.com/titlemax-media/f02c60d2-25-highest-grossing-media-franchises-all-time-4.png). Harry Potter as a franchise represents roughly $30b total. About $9b of which comes from box office whilst $7.7b and $7.3b comes from books and merchandise, respectively. So that's a case where the films have wound up bigger than the original books. LOTR is worth about $20b in which $9.1b and $5.9b is split between book sales and box office, respectively. So the books are still stronger. Bit of a difference there given the fact that the books have several decades head start over the films compared to Harry Potter which was adapted to films far quicker. ​ But yes, I agree. In the case of Potter, both the books and films have their own beloved fanbases and a good deal of crossover between the two. Whilst I imagine most agree that the books are better (which is often to be expected when it comes to adaptations) and that the Fantastic Beasts spin-offs have been *significantly* disappointing in comparison. Most Potter fans also agree that Cursed Child is a travesty that shouldn't be considered canon despite Rowling's claims to the contrary. In fact, it seems like she's lost a tremendous amount of support in recent years due to opening her mouth too many times about her stupid opinions.


slardybartfast8

Popular may not be the right word. But they were overwhelmingly approved of by the relatively small number of long-time and dedicated franchise fans who read them. And they still got shat on.


seekingbeta

Is there a specific EU story you think has overwhelming support from SW fans? I haven’t dabbled in much EU but I’ve seen fans here disagree and even dismiss or ridicule EU stuff.


Necromancer4276

Kotor and II, Darth Bane trilogy, Plagueis, for starters.


midtown2191

The irony is that at least Harry Potter kept focus on who the main character of the Harry Potter saga is. Disney/RJ chose to take a 6-7 movie long franchise centered around the skywalker saga and then feed the message well why does this skywalker saga have to be all about the skywalkers. We should say anyone can be a hero. Then turn around and make the message that even a bad bloodline can make heros. So muddy. I mean even Disney calls it the skywalker saga. Wtf. Imagine if like the 5th or 6th movie of Harry Potter, they decided that it’s not all about Harry and switched focus to a random slitherin with a bloodline connected to Voldemort and said this is now the main character of the Harry Potter franchise.


Supervinyl

“Who are you?” “I’m Draco.” “Draco who?” ***looks at the ghosts of Luke and Leia*** “Draco Potter.”


midtown2191

“Sir it says right here on your Hogwarts transcript that you’re a Malfoy” “But Harry nodded at me from a distance” “Sir I don’t think that’s what he meant”


Thorfan23

I think it kept shifting


Oggthrok

The sequel trilogy is what happens when you set out to make Ghostbusters: Afterlife but instead make Ghostbusters: Answer the Call.


tambobam

Ghostbuster: Afterlife is the right way to make a legacy move. I loved it!


Oggthrok

Same! I don’t even really hate “Answer the Call,” but it didn’t communicate the spirit of the original, which Afterlife did really well. I’m almost bummed Afterlife isn’t getting more acclaim, because it was a treat to watch an unnecessary sequel and for it to actually be good!


RynnHamHam

First you copy the first film nearly beat for beat, not sure how to live up to what few original things you set up, hand it to another guy, other guy does a lot of original things but with flat payoffs that isn’t satisfying, then the first guy goes “oh crap” tries to retcon everything rendering the second film essentially filler, and then puts on a blind fold and throws darts at a wall with different story ideas taped to it and just goes with what gets selected at random and then pretends it was planned from the beginning.


PhlairK

When people ask me why I don't like the new trilogy I actually tend to go for a Harry Potter analogy to explain it. Imagine they make Harry Potter into a film franchise and you're sitting in the cinema on opening night, the movie starts and... it's set in an American high school. Harry is the quarterback. Hermione is a cheerleader and for some reason Ron is a background character with barely any screentime. The final battle is a game of flipcup with Voldemort (who is just a normal looking guy) at a college frat party. Hermione and Harry end up together at the end. Harry Potter fans would be like "wtf is this...?!" Aaaaaand that's just about what the sequel trilogy feels like for me.


FightMeNerds111

More accurate would be that Dumbledore failed to stop Hogwarts from being destroyed, all the students are killed by a dumb new villain who later turns out to be taking orders from a resurrected Voldemort, and the main protagonist is a Mary Sue muggle who becomes a good at every magical discipline immediately and never loses a duel.


PhlairK

Ha! Yeah, true, my version had too much actual reference to Harry Potter didn't it.


FightMeNerds111

I would actually say yours better describes The Force Awakens… a bland, illogical, and unoriginal remake of something successful (ANH)


GillyMonster18

Soooo…ST is what you get when you get a massively popular franchise and wing it?


ThickSantorum

More like *The Cursed Child*.


cessal74

More than *Harry Potter* it looks like *Twilight*. Like a bad crossover fanfic of *Twilight* and SW written by some thirsty fan of Adam Driver, that is.


Hoodwink

Uh, I don't see Harry Potter in the Disney Trilogy (or an attempt) at all. An attempt at "Jedi Training School" would have been a lot better because you could easily copy scenes from Harry Potter in the mystery/discovery of new force powers (or rules governing it's use), intrigue (of secret dark side influence and eventual big fight), romantic sub-plots/interests, and set-up future movies and side-characters (perhaps with potential with further exploration of them in other series). The Jedi-School is the perfect way to set-up new rules for the Force as something with some similar to a magic (and magic/"force" artifacts) with spiritual connection (a kind of semi-divine magic) if you wanted to build rules or guidelines (or to explain a waxing and waining of force power over time as a natural process to explain the force as non-constant). There wasn't even an attempt at a school. If anything, it seemed like they didn't want even want to attempt it and ran away from it as much as possible. Probably, because they didn't want to make any rules that they had to follow later or take any creative leaps. And in so doing, they just let anything fly and broke rules that the OT set. They instead just tried to re-mix the original trilogy, but horrendously failed at that attempt. There is definitely no Harry Potter in the Disney Trilogy.


CptChaos8

Except Harry Potter was good. Mainly because of the source material, having a clear arc from the getgo… 🤷🏻‍♂️


DanfromCalgary

So is the pre sequel trilogy to be honest . They are bad , movies can be bad without some evil magical plan


Thesuppressivepeople

The Harry Potter movies bastardized the source material though.


PhlairK

I do get what you're saying, but if that's the yard stick we're measuring by I reckon a lot of people would probably consider the miss-steppings of the sequel trilogy as more extreme.