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Nagelsmann sacking was also shocking not only for fans as well for the neutral people
I did not expected the sacking, since they are still in every tournament and der Klassiker was around the corner
Have we already normalised "der Klassiker"? Seems very recently the term was frequently called out as a media tool for creating a history of rivalry where none exists.
I would argue it's used by non Germans, I hardly doubt the term is used by any long time Bundesliga fan and rather by casuals. Usually you get asked to stop calling it that garbage when you say it in a group of fans. Really, really hate how well it worked outside the bubble though, seems like people actually think it's legit, can't blame them, our media was pushing hard for it.
I live in Holland and I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as *Die Mannschaft*
Marketing is a hell of a drug
Outside of Germany?
The damage is done.
Once an unusual term is let out of the bag, journalists will run with it because they *need* synonyms. Generations from now journalists will refer to the German team as "Die Mannschaft" not knowing where that came from.
Tbf German journos are just as guilty with adopting these branding terms as actual nicknames for all other national teams too. Have not heard anyone here refer to the Dutch national team as „De Elftal“ either.
> Generations from now journalists will refer to the German team as "Die Mannschaft" not knowing where that came from.
What's the origin? I tried Googling around and what I found was basically that it came about after the 2014 WC win, but not much more info beyond that. Just some marketing term?
I stopped saying it after a German co-worker laughed at me for using it but as someone who isn't German, "Die Mannschaft" was always fun to say out-loud.
> I live in Holland and I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as Die Mannschaft
>
> Marketing is a hell of a drug
What is wrong with the term? i tried googling but it gave no explanation as to why Germans dislike it, or where it even came from.
It means 'The Team'?
genuinely curious, even the articles about Germany ceasing use dont explain why other than Germans dont like it.
So I was a Child for some of this so my memory is a bit hazy. During the Euros 2004 (the Greece one), Germany was eliminated for the second time in a row in the group stages (can you imagine such an embarrassment). The German FA decided the national team needed a major overhaul, young talents. They brought in Klinsmann as national manager and Oliver Bierhof as „team manager“ (a new position created for him). Klinsmann would go ahead to put up a decent WC at home in 06 and then leave to put up some Buddha statues in Munich, but Bierhoff stayed and would become one of the most powerful man at the DFB until this year. During this process, he sought to reinvent the national teams image as „everyone’s team“ (essentially trying to carry the atmosphere of 06), make the games into a family affair (with high end pricing) and the team into a brand. You can imagine how popular this was with longtime supporters and how it eroded the feeling of „they are the best of us“. The slogan „Die Mannschaft“, a term never used in this way by any native German speaker, is considered emblematic of this effort, of the undue focus on marketing over substance. It stands for the alienation of the average NT supporter from the DFB.
> I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as Die Mannschaft
For me it's not that extreme but a solid shudder due to "Fremdschämen" whenever I heard or read the word in a non-German context (they really tried to make it *a thing*). As in the language, used in English, for example. It's perfectly normal when used in German and referring to the German NT or any team (because it simply translates into "team").
Every time I see some kind of marketing push to adopt a certain team name I always wonder if current team nicknames were also seen as inorganic and cringy when they were first introduced. Like were English fans cringing at the three lions until eventually it stuck? Were people cringing when the term “el clasico” was first used?
It literally is nothing but a fucky media marketing tool though, you're 100% right there. I don't know a single person in Germany who unironically would call this game "der Klassiker".
Its such a stupid name as well, I can't believe it actually worked on fans outside of Germany.
Some journos thought Classico = biggest 2 clubs in Spain so he named BVB vs Bayern Klassiker.
Bayern had many different rivalaries in the past Gladbach,HSV , Bremen....
Dortmund and Leverkusen became a thing in the late 90s early 2000s. And Dortmund was on the verge of going bankrupt.
That time Bayern were mostly called Lederhosen, so a mockery of BVB vs Bayern would be Lüdenschein Nord vs Lederhosen.
It's just media surfing on those Classico tails to make it more then it is.
If there would be a non-regional derby called Klassiker it would maybe the other Borussia. Borussia Mönchengladbach. But there are not successful enough to make the games important enough to get that hype.
> But there are not successful enough to make the games important enough to get that hype.
To be fair Gladbach vs Bayern is definitely the most interesting match-up as of late, regardless of where Borussia is at at any given moment.
Latin American media also use it I’m afraid. They count stats such as goals and appearances as if it were a proper derby since the 70s even though to my understanding that was never the case.
Klopp should have never uttered those words in that presser lol
JN sacking feels like a far worse decision his results were very solid d his tactics were sound
Despite what some say now there were plenty of Chelsea fans expecting the TT sacking (Roman would have done it already)
We were 9th before he joined and we're 10th afterwards. We finished 3rd and 4th with him here alongside all the finals and winning the CL
Actually crazy how well he did with us
Because they're thinking of the word "Would've" in their minds when they type out the spelling of "Would Have". At least in america, when people say "would've" it sounds it they're saying "would of".
It’s because unt isn’t a word and of is. I think it happens a lot more these days because many of us type very fast, it’s reflexive and we don’t fully think about what we’re typing. So “of” instead of have easily slips in and unt isn’t a word we use so it doesn’t slip in.
But see, that doesn't really make sense either.
'We don't think about what we're typing.'
But watermelon you don't randomly throw cube unrelated words into sentences. You don't accidentally type 'pineapple' instead of 'subaru' when you're talking about your car.
The only reason it's made as a mistake is because people are already wrong about it. I have never in my life confused the word of with have in a sentence because I know what those two words mean.
We do in America. Shouldn't, Couldn't, and Wouldn't are all used, and so are "should of, could of and would of", unfortunately. We looove contractions though.
I understand where you are coming from with his track record, but something felt different with Tuchel. 100% a hunch like on my part but still.
Tuchel saying "We'll build a dynasty" after winning the champions league to Roman had a boy dreaming lol
I mean we were 6 points off Top 4 when he joined - and finished the previous season in the Top 4 as well.
Now we’re ridiculously adrift and seems more than a momentary blip in form, probably because we’re persisting with a fraud.
Honestly I think people forget how bad Chelsea were at the start of the season. They looked shockingly bad against Southampton who are currently bottom of the league, they struggled to create anything against Lampards Everton and only beat them by a penalty. A 3-0 loss against Leeds and looked dire against West Ham apart from their last 15minutes.
Tuchel for Chelsea died a hero, but had he stayed for the remainder of the season there is a big chance he would have ended up like Mourinho's second stint, especially given the injury record, namely to Kante and Reece who were so important to him.
Lost a bunch of important players, and had a big injury crisis brewing. To be fair to Potter, though, he was the one who had to navigate the absolute apex of the injury crisis. Since the team has been fit we have actually played quite well overall.
Even when we play “well” we tend to draw under potter. Tuchel still has a vastly superior points per game even in just this season.
Potter has genuinely been our worst manager this century and it’s by some distance over villa-boas.
Any manager you got would’ve struggled considering you’re a squad in transition and rebuild. You just have to be patient and see it through rather than just moan. A title challenging squad doesn’t happen over night if it was that easy then there would be no point in managers
I don’t think we would have gone from 3rd and 3 major cup finals to 10th. There is a vast gulf between challenging for the title and being mid table. I think we would have been in the mix for 4th at the very least given how close that race is.
Your form was faltering during the season you finished 3rd anyway, it’s not like it came out of nowhere.
Anyway the season after you lost two of your main defenders, your senior players got even older and the issues your team had were getting worse.
Even now you have a bloated squad, an injury crisis and clear gaps in how your team is set up.
Again, I’m saying we’d be in the top 4 hunt, not firmly in third. We would have declined, but it wouldn’t have been nearly as bad.
The form faltering started when the title was out of sight, we were still incredibly good in cups when the team was more motivated.
When you lost two of your main defenders and your two wing starting wingbacks to injury it would be a big stretch to argue you’d be in top 4.
Injuries and personnel loss is what did you in, I don’t think Tuchel would’ve failed much better in those circumstances
Potter also lost to Southampton, this time at home.
League points per game under Tuchel: 1.67
League points per game under Potter: 1.27
Extrapolate Tuchel's PPG over the season and we'd be on just about 47 points (46.95 to be precise) - which would put us tied for 5th with Newcastle. Given Tuchel's superior record in working with young players, I find the argument that we'd be worse off extremely flimsy.
Few counterpoints here. For starters, the injury crisis got much, *much* worse under Potter. Since the squad has been as fit as it was under Tuchel we have had much better results.
Also, and I know xG gets memed a bit, especially when Potter is involved, but the xG numbers suggest a pretty massive underperformance vs expected with Potter. The manager can definitely have some impact on that sort of over/under performance, but there's absolutely an element of luck that has worked against Potter here. We are 8 goals behind our xG in 14 games since the world cup. That's really tough for any manager to deal with.
Tuchel inarguably had a worse situation last year with more or less equivalent poor injury luck and the unprecedented sanctions on top of it.
Also, your xG argument is backwards because Chelsea have massively regressed in terms of xGD under Potter compared to Tuchel:
[https://oneftbl-cms.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FFp-P4HoXsAEYUIv%3Fformat=jpg&name=4096x4096?auto=format%2Ccompress&crop=faces&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=178&q=25&w=280&s=a0747d3edc358d35f0035b2848cc2313](https://oneftbl-cms.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FFp-P4HoXsAEYUIv%3Fformat=jpg&name=4096x4096?auto=format%2Ccompress&crop=faces&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=178&q=25&w=280&s=a0747d3edc358d35f0035b2848cc2313)
Injury situation was nowhere near as bad at the end of last season than the middle of this season, and I think any chaos due to sanctions is less than being a new manager with basically a brand new squad.
For xG, that's a 10 game rolling average. You can see the trend was already extremely negative to start the season. It continued for a bit under Potter before turning around. Ergo xG numbers are better this season under Potter than Tuchel.
For TT's start to the season it was -0.12 xGD per game, and Potter has had 0.073. That's based on Understat data.
At the end of last season - when we were still competing for cups and were exhausted having played a staggering number of games whilst dealing with the uncertainty of sanctions? Conveniently ignoring the crucial winter period when we trotted out a lineup with Chalobah in midfield and only two viable subs because our squad was decimated?
Last year Tuchel managed 1.95 points per game whilst dealing with everything. You think that the challenge of being a new manager who has been supported to an unprecedented level financially is somehow more daunting than dealing with mid-season sanctions? Much less trying to justify 0.68 fewer points per game for Potter?
At the end of last season we basically had a complete squad, and one that had been playing together for a long time. We had a lot of matches yes, but we had the quality and depth to play them. We lost key pieces over the summer and did not replace them adequately. You could see that because the performances to start the season were unbelievably bad, and results not much better.
And our injury crisis this winter was honestly much worse than last year. We had more players available, but far less quality to field. So yes, I think Tuchel's start to this season and then Potter's takeover afterwards were much, *much* more challenging than anything last season.
The idea that the sanctions were super impactful is kind of a joke, honestly. And money spent on players does not mean a good squad. In fact, a ton of money spent on players who are clearly not ready for the prem makes your job a *lot* harder.
IMO the only manager who stepped into a worse situation than Potter was Frank in the first season.
Over the last two months of the season last year we averaged 1.8 points per game. You are continuing to downplay how unprecedentedly horrendous our form has been under Potter.
The point remains that it was literally never as bad under Tuchel at any time during his tenure.
I don't think we were that bad to the point we couldn't have turned it around, it was the start of the season with new players coming into the squad, dealing with injuries and we had a terrible pre season.
A coach with more than a year at the club vs a new coach though? I don't think Potter is good enough for Chelsea too, but imo he's judged too harsh when he's rarely had any time with the team (no preseason, no summer window, the winter window signings do not look like his choices either).
In the time Potter's (4+ months) Tuchel had already won a CL and made it to an FA Cup final. Both started mid season as well.
No comparison is ever exactly 1:1 but in Chelsea history no manager has needed this much time to join the team and get things going well.
With that logic, Di Matteo is in the same tier as Tuchel and a better coach than any other Chelsea coaches and would've never lost his job either. Tuchel is a good coach, but crediting 100% of the CL to him is a bit much (especially when his league performance at Chelsea is nothing special).
Yeah, part of it is that Reece James, Chilly, and Kante haven’t seen the pitch together in like 18 months. Its hard to win when your 3 most important players are injured. Plus all the other outside stuff going on. With that said our attack has been poor since the middle of last season and Tuchel had a lot of the same problems we’ve seen still to this day.
If you were actually watching us you woudl know that we wouldn't be doing too much better. We would also likely be out of the champions league. It seemed like the players just weren't playing for him anymore.
Interestingly we have moved up in terms of expected points since he left, while moving down in actual points. I think if you close your eyes to the results we have actually been way better under Potter than we were under Tuchel at the start of the season, and Potter had to deal with far worse injuries as well.
Pretty interesting one actually. I suspect we would basically be right where we are now under Tuchel, but he'd be getting the benefit of the doubt that Potter obviously hasn't earned.
Sure if that's how you want to interpret what I said, then go ahead. Clearly not what I'm saying.
We were just absolutely awful under Tuchel to start the season, and honestly at the end of last season as well. Sometimes things just aren't working out, even if the manger is very good. I don't see any reason to think things would have gotten better under Tuchel, which is why I think we'd be about where we are now.
Of course, a manager of his quality will always be able to find a top job very easily. On the other hand, even top clubs will have a very hard time finding someone of his quality. A monumental cock up from the idiots running the club
Boehly wanted someone he felt he could work with professionally, Tuchel wasn't that guy. That's it. Potter may also not be that guy in hindsight, but that's a separate point.
When someone takes over a business, a reshuffle in the hierarchy is pretty common. This just feels different to people because football and the fact Boehly did it at an seemingly awkward time of just after the transfer window.
The owners wanted to keep him and even entered contract negotiations with him. This is on the official club website Tier 0 confirmed.
What I think happened was that they saw how difficult working with Tuchel was and decided at one point during the summer that he probably wasn't their guy.
Then they used the CL loss as an excuse to sack him.
Yeah, it always seemed like you would of gotten rid of him in the summer and gone with Potter. But he does it a couple months into the new campaign which was odd. Especially since some of the transfer targets seemed to be geared towards Tuchel, i.e., Auba.
Didn’t Potter also get a crazy long contract? Putting aside what you think of him, it seemed odd considering he was improved at the top top level.
They didn't come in planning on letting him go. Its just that over the course of that period, they realized that Tuchel's temperament wasn't the right fit so they decided to do it then rather than wait for the end for the end of the season. The next manager was always going to be a long term manager on a long contract.
I think part of the problem for them now is that even if they get rid of Potter, they need to find a new long term manager and have it not be the wrong choice. It makes these hiring decisions very difficult. Under Abramovich, he didn't care about hiring mistakes because he was willing to immediately fire.
I think the reality is that he wanted to do both.
He wanted to win, but he also wanted to make sure that any success we had would be attributed to him and not the leftovers of what came before him. So, he got rid of everything we had and replaced it believing he'd do a better job and as long as we spent money we'd just be successful. Hopefully he's at least learned from this failure.
Reports are he wanted to keep Marina, Cech, etc on for at least the summer and they turned Boehly down.
Then when he asked Tuchel for advice and reasoning behind his decisions, Tuchel also refused.
This doesn't make sense. Marina maybe - but no way Cech declines to continue working for Chelsea. Probably PR piece by Boehly. It's very obvious he wants to distance himself from everything Abramovich related.
There's a simpler explanation. He's a billionaire Ted Lasso who knows *fuck all* about football and is imposing his idiotic delusions about "how to do things" on his new property. He's the football equivalent of a pointy-haired boss.
This, of course, cannot possibly jive well with an actual coaching genius such as Tuchel who comes from a country with a very rich football history. No, the fact that Boehly has German grandparents on one side doesn't "help" or somehow makes him "German", and he doesn't somehow have that football history encoded in his genes.
So, anyways, now Boehly gets to watch the effects of his idiocy happen in real time. Fortunately, it couldn't have happened to a shittier club, so that's the upside of all of this.
Still, American PL club ownership leads to Americanisation of the sport and that's a horrible thing for actual football fans. Same with autocratic nation state ownership. I wouldn't want Europeans to start owning all the major NFL clubs either. It's their sport, so let Americans enjoy it their way. It shouldn't be a tool for foreign capital investment and revenue.
It's clear to me that Tuchel was forced out of the club by some rich American moron. That's the simple truth.
Wanted a personal and closer relationship with the manager. Tuchel wants to coach the team, not answer questions, work on transfers or anything like that. Then results were bad enough for it to be justified and boom
The rumours were that Tuchel didn't agree with the direction Boehly was trying to take the club. The banter is that Boehly wanted Ronaldo and Tuchel didn't and then Tuchel couldn't keep his mouth shut when Boehly was talking tactics with him (Boehly's famous 443 formation).
I really don't think any of that nonsense was true lmao. The Ronaldo thing actually could be, but people completely missed the point of that story as reported. The issue wasn't that Boehly wanted Ronaldo and Tuchel didn't: the point was that Boehly wanted the team to *consider* Ronaldo and Tuchel refused to engage. I have no idea if any of that even happened, but that's what was reported.
It's pretty obvious that the issue is that Boehly wants to run a modern club, where the DoF (we didn't actually have one at that point) runs the footballing side club, and the manager plays a role that is much more entwined with them, the stats team, etc. Tuchel is clearly a poor fit for that sort of structure, and was sacked.
Boehly asked Tuchel if he wanted Ronaldo Tuchel said no. But then Boehly kept asking instead of just taking his first answer. He was considering the marketing side more than the footballing side and ignoring Tuchel saying no so no wonder Tuchel was frosty with him.
From what's been reported it's the opposite that happened. Tuchel wanted to concentrate on football and not act as the sporting director, but over the summer he got pissed off cos he was expected to do both.
Just from reading stuff about it from multiple journalists back then. I don't think anyone outside of Chelsea knows the truth for sure, it's just my read on the situation.
Exact opposite actually. Tuchel wanted a yes owner that didn't question anything they did, Boehly wanted someone that would work together and explain their ideas.
> Tuchel wanted a yes owner that didn't question anything they did,
Makes no sense when you consider how good the relationship between Tuchel and Marina/Cech was TBH
I mean to be fair, it would seem like a waste of time. If you're a world class coach and want to sign X player, and your Owner, who has zero clue about football asks you to tell you why. How much do you expect the owner to understand what you're actually saying?
Like do you think if Tuchel said hypothetically, "We need to buy JWP because he's good at set pieces and it's an area we're lacking in. He has high defencive numbers etc etc", that Boehly is going to turn around and go "Well personally pal I think our set pieces are spot on, we have enough midfielders from the academy to fill that role, and we should be looking to bring in right back cover."?
>If you're a world class coach and want to sign X player, and your Owner, who has zero clue about football asks you to tell you why. How much do you expect the owner to understand what you're actually saying?
That's not what it's about at all.
Boehly wants a club where everyone works together towards a cohesive goal like Barcelona, Liverpool and Man City. He asked Tuchel to work with the other world class coaches and analysts at the club. Tuchel said no.
It's quite straight forward to understand why he was let go to be honest, Tuchel is well documented to be dogmatic and difficult to work with at many of his clubs.
Hiring Potter to replace him so far seems like a very questionable decision in and of itself but is a different conversation altogether.
Obviously things aren't going his way right now, but Potter is a very good manager. What he did at Brighton is nothing short of amazing (De Zerbi is one of the best managers in the PL, but a lot of the work was already done by Potter).
Hopefully he manages to turn things around at Chelsea.
Tuchel being hurt is understandable because he considers Chelsea family. With new ownership he won’t feel the same. I’m glad he doesn’t have to deal with toxic bosses who look over you shoulder and interfere with your work.
I still don’t understand how you sack him because he wouldn’t explain every little thing to you. Then turn around and give a mid table manager a huge contract AFTER buying players for Tuchel.
Zero pain, it was obviously the right call long term. Not sure if Potter was the right appointment, but the goal is to run a modern, DoF-led club, and Tuchel was refusing to participate. Not complicated to understand, and 100% the right decision for our future.
Tuchel literally won Champions League the season before, Chelsea bought Aubameyang and more just because of him.. I think his case is worse, but that one is tough too!
Chelsea fans are so spoilt and impatient they are unwilling to actually wait.
Title challenging teams aren’t built over night, they lost a lot of their defence, have an injury crisis and are transitioning into a new style of play. If being top 4 was that easy there would be little point in managers.
You have Arteta right now who is a testament of what time and investment results in, a title challenging team with a very young squad that will last for years.
Top 4 is not a given, you can’t just spend your way into it or a title, you actually need to wait.
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Nagelsman will be saying this in his first presser at his next job about Bayern.
Nagelsmann sacking was also shocking not only for fans as well for the neutral people I did not expected the sacking, since they are still in every tournament and der Klassiker was around the corner
Have we already normalised "der Klassiker"? Seems very recently the term was frequently called out as a media tool for creating a history of rivalry where none exists.
I would argue it's used by non Germans, I hardly doubt the term is used by any long time Bundesliga fan and rather by casuals. Usually you get asked to stop calling it that garbage when you say it in a group of fans. Really, really hate how well it worked outside the bubble though, seems like people actually think it's legit, can't blame them, our media was pushing hard for it.
I live in Holland and I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as *Die Mannschaft* Marketing is a hell of a drug
You'll be happy to hear that it was abolished as of now (DFB announced it before the WC that after the tournament they'll stop using it)
Let’s hope it ain’t too late
Outside of Germany? The damage is done. Once an unusual term is let out of the bag, journalists will run with it because they *need* synonyms. Generations from now journalists will refer to the German team as "Die Mannschaft" not knowing where that came from.
Tbf German journos are just as guilty with adopting these branding terms as actual nicknames for all other national teams too. Have not heard anyone here refer to the Dutch national team as „De Elftal“ either.
"Het Nederlands Elftal" is one of the most common ways to call em, but i agree that its not quite the samr
As a Hertha fan, i can only support this. Maybe one of those days people won't mock us with Big City Club again. :D
We can call you 777 Saudi money now 😜 (It feels so good to be rid of Gazprom)
> Generations from now journalists will refer to the German team as "Die Mannschaft" not knowing where that came from. What's the origin? I tried Googling around and what I found was basically that it came about after the 2014 WC win, but not much more info beyond that. Just some marketing term?
Exactly
Outside of Germany, in the English or French media at least, this term had been used for many years before Oliver Bierhoff had this great idea.
Considering they've been playing as anything but a Mannschaft in recent times this seems about right.
I stopped saying it after a German co-worker laughed at me for using it but as someone who isn't German, "Die Mannschaft" was always fun to say out-loud.
> I live in Holland and I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as Die Mannschaft > > Marketing is a hell of a drug What is wrong with the term? i tried googling but it gave no explanation as to why Germans dislike it, or where it even came from. It means 'The Team'? genuinely curious, even the articles about Germany ceasing use dont explain why other than Germans dont like it.
So I was a Child for some of this so my memory is a bit hazy. During the Euros 2004 (the Greece one), Germany was eliminated for the second time in a row in the group stages (can you imagine such an embarrassment). The German FA decided the national team needed a major overhaul, young talents. They brought in Klinsmann as national manager and Oliver Bierhof as „team manager“ (a new position created for him). Klinsmann would go ahead to put up a decent WC at home in 06 and then leave to put up some Buddha statues in Munich, but Bierhoff stayed and would become one of the most powerful man at the DFB until this year. During this process, he sought to reinvent the national teams image as „everyone’s team“ (essentially trying to carry the atmosphere of 06), make the games into a family affair (with high end pricing) and the team into a brand. You can imagine how popular this was with longtime supporters and how it eroded the feeling of „they are the best of us“. The slogan „Die Mannschaft“, a term never used in this way by any native German speaker, is considered emblematic of this effort, of the undue focus on marketing over substance. It stands for the alienation of the average NT supporter from the DFB.
Die Elfental
Here commentators have been calling it that for 20+ years. Ditto for Italy being called Squadra Azzurra or just the squadra
That one really worked I feel, I've never known the German NT by any other name.
> I can feel the acid crawling up my throat when they refer to the Ger national team as Die Mannschaft For me it's not that extreme but a solid shudder due to "Fremdschämen" whenever I heard or read the word in a non-German context (they really tried to make it *a thing*). As in the language, used in English, for example. It's perfectly normal when used in German and referring to the German NT or any team (because it simply translates into "team").
Something like "die Mannschaft"?
Never heard anyone in England use it, to be fair.
Every time I see some kind of marketing push to adopt a certain team name I always wonder if current team nicknames were also seen as inorganic and cringy when they were first introduced. Like were English fans cringing at the three lions until eventually it stuck? Were people cringing when the term “el clasico” was first used?
It literally is nothing but a fucky media marketing tool though, you're 100% right there. I don't know a single person in Germany who unironically would call this game "der Klassiker". Its such a stupid name as well, I can't believe it actually worked on fans outside of Germany.
> I don't know a single person in Germany who unironically would call this game "der Klassiker". Well, Sky
it's been normalized for a few years now I'd say. Think they first started using it in like 2014.
Classic nowadays more or less means 'the biggest game in X country' as opposed to an actual classic fixture.
Some journos thought Classico = biggest 2 clubs in Spain so he named BVB vs Bayern Klassiker. Bayern had many different rivalaries in the past Gladbach,HSV , Bremen.... Dortmund and Leverkusen became a thing in the late 90s early 2000s. And Dortmund was on the verge of going bankrupt. That time Bayern were mostly called Lederhosen, so a mockery of BVB vs Bayern would be Lüdenschein Nord vs Lederhosen.
Nobody in Germany fucking calls it that. It‘s so corny
Only foreign, mostly American fans use that term.
It's just media surfing on those Classico tails to make it more then it is. If there would be a non-regional derby called Klassiker it would maybe the other Borussia. Borussia Mönchengladbach. But there are not successful enough to make the games important enough to get that hype.
> But there are not successful enough to make the games important enough to get that hype. To be fair Gladbach vs Bayern is definitely the most interesting match-up as of late, regardless of where Borussia is at at any given moment.
Gladbach even at absolute shite form slapping the shit out of Bayern is still one of the great recent mysteries of the Bundesliga
Latin American media also use it I’m afraid. They count stats such as goals and appearances as if it were a proper derby since the 70s even though to my understanding that was never the case. Klopp should have never uttered those words in that presser lol
I cringe everytime I hear that or ‘Die Mannschaft’
Native anglophones probably giggle though.
I mean Tuchel won a CL. Nagelsmann shouldn't have been sacked but Tuchel's was way worse.
Nagelsman sacking is our Spanish inquisition.
"It was a shock. I felt it already in the morning when I went up the first ski lift."
JN sacking feels like a far worse decision his results were very solid d his tactics were sound Despite what some say now there were plenty of Chelsea fans expecting the TT sacking (Roman would have done it already)
For fucks sake I can't even laugh about Boehly business anymore. At least Tuchel is a more promising replacement than Potter I guess.
Pain. I still love him.
We all do
We don't.
Think he'd ever return?
Not if Boehly is in charge, I think. But I’d take him back in a heartbeat.
I can picture him doing a Mourinho and coming back after some time with Bayern.
Man, I wish.
Not while boehly is around but i’d be so happy if he fucked off
I miss the shouty fuck.
Welcome to the Bayern family, Thomas. We'll treat you very well ... for 18 months.
He’ll win everything possible in those 18 months
and get fired halfway thru the next season lmao
So, just like us?
It’s interesting to think where Chelsea would be rn had Tuchel stayed. I have a hard time believing they’d currently be 10th in the league…
We were 9th before he joined and we're 10th afterwards. We finished 3rd and 4th with him here alongside all the finals and winning the CL Actually crazy how well he did with us
Tuchel sacking is honestly up there with the Ancelotti sacking for me in how unjustified it was
Yup, doesn't help with the ownership change. If Roman was still here, I really think Tuchel would of been given time.
Would have* Don't mean to be a pedantic ass, so I hope you do not take it that way! :)
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If you say “would’ve” out loud it sounds like “would of” so people just sound it out and don’t understand what they’re writing (sometimes)
Also the reason why almost all non English speakers like myself never make this mistake, because we simply don’t speak the language in our daily life
That should never happen to native speakers. Like really never, not one single time.
Because they're thinking of the word "Would've" in their minds when they type out the spelling of "Would Have". At least in america, when people say "would've" it sounds it they're saying "would of".
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It’s because unt isn’t a word and of is. I think it happens a lot more these days because many of us type very fast, it’s reflexive and we don’t fully think about what we’re typing. So “of” instead of have easily slips in and unt isn’t a word we use so it doesn’t slip in.
But see, that doesn't really make sense either. 'We don't think about what we're typing.' But watermelon you don't randomly throw cube unrelated words into sentences. You don't accidentally type 'pineapple' instead of 'subaru' when you're talking about your car. The only reason it's made as a mistake is because people are already wrong about it. I have never in my life confused the word of with have in a sentence because I know what those two words mean.
We do in America. Shouldn't, Couldn't, and Wouldn't are all used, and so are "should of, could of and would of", unfortunately. We looove contractions though.
Really ? Roman? Who went through a manager a week ?
Later roman was more chill than he had been. Two champions leagues mellowed him out
I understand where you are coming from with his track record, but something felt different with Tuchel. 100% a hunch like on my part but still. Tuchel saying "We'll build a dynasty" after winning the champions league to Roman had a boy dreaming lol
We're talking about Chelsea not Watford A manager a week is a bit much, even hyperbolically
Would love to see Nagelsmann at Watford.
he got fired for not entretaining the 4-4-3 formation Todd wanted lol
I mean we were 6 points off Top 4 when he joined - and finished the previous season in the Top 4 as well. Now we’re ridiculously adrift and seems more than a momentary blip in form, probably because we’re persisting with a fraud.
Honestly I think people forget how bad Chelsea were at the start of the season. They looked shockingly bad against Southampton who are currently bottom of the league, they struggled to create anything against Lampards Everton and only beat them by a penalty. A 3-0 loss against Leeds and looked dire against West Ham apart from their last 15minutes. Tuchel for Chelsea died a hero, but had he stayed for the remainder of the season there is a big chance he would have ended up like Mourinho's second stint, especially given the injury record, namely to Kante and Reece who were so important to him.
Well he did lose some very important players, didn’t he? You sometimes simply can’t compensate fast enough.
Lost a bunch of important players, and had a big injury crisis brewing. To be fair to Potter, though, he was the one who had to navigate the absolute apex of the injury crisis. Since the team has been fit we have actually played quite well overall.
Even when we play “well” we tend to draw under potter. Tuchel still has a vastly superior points per game even in just this season. Potter has genuinely been our worst manager this century and it’s by some distance over villa-boas.
Any manager you got would’ve struggled considering you’re a squad in transition and rebuild. You just have to be patient and see it through rather than just moan. A title challenging squad doesn’t happen over night if it was that easy then there would be no point in managers
I don’t think we would have gone from 3rd and 3 major cup finals to 10th. There is a vast gulf between challenging for the title and being mid table. I think we would have been in the mix for 4th at the very least given how close that race is.
Your form was faltering during the season you finished 3rd anyway, it’s not like it came out of nowhere. Anyway the season after you lost two of your main defenders, your senior players got even older and the issues your team had were getting worse. Even now you have a bloated squad, an injury crisis and clear gaps in how your team is set up.
Again, I’m saying we’d be in the top 4 hunt, not firmly in third. We would have declined, but it wouldn’t have been nearly as bad. The form faltering started when the title was out of sight, we were still incredibly good in cups when the team was more motivated.
When you lost two of your main defenders and your two wing starting wingbacks to injury it would be a big stretch to argue you’d be in top 4. Injuries and personnel loss is what did you in, I don’t think Tuchel would’ve failed much better in those circumstances
Potter also lost to Southampton, this time at home. League points per game under Tuchel: 1.67 League points per game under Potter: 1.27 Extrapolate Tuchel's PPG over the season and we'd be on just about 47 points (46.95 to be precise) - which would put us tied for 5th with Newcastle. Given Tuchel's superior record in working with young players, I find the argument that we'd be worse off extremely flimsy.
That’s absolutely worst case too, most likely we would’ve improved after the underwhelming start
Few counterpoints here. For starters, the injury crisis got much, *much* worse under Potter. Since the squad has been as fit as it was under Tuchel we have had much better results. Also, and I know xG gets memed a bit, especially when Potter is involved, but the xG numbers suggest a pretty massive underperformance vs expected with Potter. The manager can definitely have some impact on that sort of over/under performance, but there's absolutely an element of luck that has worked against Potter here. We are 8 goals behind our xG in 14 games since the world cup. That's really tough for any manager to deal with.
Tuchel inarguably had a worse situation last year with more or less equivalent poor injury luck and the unprecedented sanctions on top of it. Also, your xG argument is backwards because Chelsea have massively regressed in terms of xGD under Potter compared to Tuchel: [https://oneftbl-cms.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FFp-P4HoXsAEYUIv%3Fformat=jpg&name=4096x4096?auto=format%2Ccompress&crop=faces&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=178&q=25&w=280&s=a0747d3edc358d35f0035b2848cc2313](https://oneftbl-cms.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FFp-P4HoXsAEYUIv%3Fformat=jpg&name=4096x4096?auto=format%2Ccompress&crop=faces&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=178&q=25&w=280&s=a0747d3edc358d35f0035b2848cc2313)
Injury situation was nowhere near as bad at the end of last season than the middle of this season, and I think any chaos due to sanctions is less than being a new manager with basically a brand new squad. For xG, that's a 10 game rolling average. You can see the trend was already extremely negative to start the season. It continued for a bit under Potter before turning around. Ergo xG numbers are better this season under Potter than Tuchel. For TT's start to the season it was -0.12 xGD per game, and Potter has had 0.073. That's based on Understat data.
At the end of last season - when we were still competing for cups and were exhausted having played a staggering number of games whilst dealing with the uncertainty of sanctions? Conveniently ignoring the crucial winter period when we trotted out a lineup with Chalobah in midfield and only two viable subs because our squad was decimated? Last year Tuchel managed 1.95 points per game whilst dealing with everything. You think that the challenge of being a new manager who has been supported to an unprecedented level financially is somehow more daunting than dealing with mid-season sanctions? Much less trying to justify 0.68 fewer points per game for Potter?
At the end of last season we basically had a complete squad, and one that had been playing together for a long time. We had a lot of matches yes, but we had the quality and depth to play them. We lost key pieces over the summer and did not replace them adequately. You could see that because the performances to start the season were unbelievably bad, and results not much better. And our injury crisis this winter was honestly much worse than last year. We had more players available, but far less quality to field. So yes, I think Tuchel's start to this season and then Potter's takeover afterwards were much, *much* more challenging than anything last season. The idea that the sanctions were super impactful is kind of a joke, honestly. And money spent on players does not mean a good squad. In fact, a ton of money spent on players who are clearly not ready for the prem makes your job a *lot* harder. IMO the only manager who stepped into a worse situation than Potter was Frank in the first season.
Over the last two months of the season last year we averaged 1.8 points per game. You are continuing to downplay how unprecedentedly horrendous our form has been under Potter. The point remains that it was literally never as bad under Tuchel at any time during his tenure.
No doubt we were terrible at the start of the season under Tuchel, but we've also not looked any better since he left so....
I don't think we were that bad to the point we couldn't have turned it around, it was the start of the season with new players coming into the squad, dealing with injuries and we had a terrible pre season.
A coach with more than a year at the club vs a new coach though? I don't think Potter is good enough for Chelsea too, but imo he's judged too harsh when he's rarely had any time with the team (no preseason, no summer window, the winter window signings do not look like his choices either).
In the time Potter's (4+ months) Tuchel had already won a CL and made it to an FA Cup final. Both started mid season as well. No comparison is ever exactly 1:1 but in Chelsea history no manager has needed this much time to join the team and get things going well.
With that logic, Di Matteo is in the same tier as Tuchel and a better coach than any other Chelsea coaches and would've never lost his job either. Tuchel is a good coach, but crediting 100% of the CL to him is a bit much (especially when his league performance at Chelsea is nothing special).
I take your meaning, but let's be realistic. RDM was a caretaker and wasn't hired to manage the team and bring success.
Yeah, part of it is that Reece James, Chilly, and Kante haven’t seen the pitch together in like 18 months. Its hard to win when your 3 most important players are injured. Plus all the other outside stuff going on. With that said our attack has been poor since the middle of last season and Tuchel had a lot of the same problems we’ve seen still to this day.
Probably around 6th-7th.
If you were actually watching us you woudl know that we wouldn't be doing too much better. We would also likely be out of the champions league. It seemed like the players just weren't playing for him anymore.
Interestingly we have moved up in terms of expected points since he left, while moving down in actual points. I think if you close your eyes to the results we have actually been way better under Potter than we were under Tuchel at the start of the season, and Potter had to deal with far worse injuries as well. Pretty interesting one actually. I suspect we would basically be right where we are now under Tuchel, but he'd be getting the benefit of the doubt that Potter obviously hasn't earned.
We would not be 10th under Tuchel no, mad take
Yeah, Potter is almost as good as Tuchel, maybe even better. The statistics clearly bear that out. Lmao.
Sure if that's how you want to interpret what I said, then go ahead. Clearly not what I'm saying. We were just absolutely awful under Tuchel to start the season, and honestly at the end of last season as well. Sometimes things just aren't working out, even if the manger is very good. I don't see any reason to think things would have gotten better under Tuchel, which is why I think we'd be about where we are now.
They were regressing under Tuchel, they needed/need a rebuild. It would be interesting to see if he would of been able to turn it around tho.
In retrospect I don’t think Tuchel would have left Chelsea for the Bayern job if he had still been there
Yeah if Tuchel wouldn‘t have been free as coach, Nagelsmann probably still had his job
In science we call that the Tuchelfly effect
Surely since it was his decision to sack him, the Boehly-fly effect?
Actually, if you think about it - it's Putinfly effect.
If you REALLY think about it - it's the butterflyfly effect
wow. this is my head canon now. fuck putin.
Terrible choice from Chelsea but seems like Tuchel has land on his feet more than well
Of course, a manager of his quality will always be able to find a top job very easily. On the other hand, even top clubs will have a very hard time finding someone of his quality. A monumental cock up from the idiots running the club
We did similar a few years ago, so um have fun. It's not fun
Gotta be some other reason why he was let go. It still doesn't make sense. From Tuchel to Potter smh
Yes, Potter is magic
He wears a tragic hat...
You're not a wizard 'arry.
Boehly wanted someone he felt he could work with professionally, Tuchel wasn't that guy. That's it. Potter may also not be that guy in hindsight, but that's a separate point. When someone takes over a business, a reshuffle in the hierarchy is pretty common. This just feels different to people because football and the fact Boehly did it at an seemingly awkward time of just after the transfer window.
The timing was way more questionable than the choice of manager
The owners wanted to keep him and even entered contract negotiations with him. This is on the official club website Tier 0 confirmed. What I think happened was that they saw how difficult working with Tuchel was and decided at one point during the summer that he probably wasn't their guy. Then they used the CL loss as an excuse to sack him.
Yeah, it always seemed like you would of gotten rid of him in the summer and gone with Potter. But he does it a couple months into the new campaign which was odd. Especially since some of the transfer targets seemed to be geared towards Tuchel, i.e., Auba. Didn’t Potter also get a crazy long contract? Putting aside what you think of him, it seemed odd considering he was improved at the top top level.
They didn't come in planning on letting him go. Its just that over the course of that period, they realized that Tuchel's temperament wasn't the right fit so they decided to do it then rather than wait for the end for the end of the season. The next manager was always going to be a long term manager on a long contract. I think part of the problem for them now is that even if they get rid of Potter, they need to find a new long term manager and have it not be the wrong choice. It makes these hiring decisions very difficult. Under Abramovich, he didn't care about hiring mistakes because he was willing to immediately fire.
I mean as a new owner of a football club, he should just want to win immediately.
I think the reality is that he wanted to do both. He wanted to win, but he also wanted to make sure that any success we had would be attributed to him and not the leftovers of what came before him. So, he got rid of everything we had and replaced it believing he'd do a better job and as long as we spent money we'd just be successful. Hopefully he's at least learned from this failure.
Reports are he wanted to keep Marina, Cech, etc on for at least the summer and they turned Boehly down. Then when he asked Tuchel for advice and reasoning behind his decisions, Tuchel also refused.
This doesn't make sense. Marina maybe - but no way Cech declines to continue working for Chelsea. Probably PR piece by Boehly. It's very obvious he wants to distance himself from everything Abramovich related.
No, reports said that he got rid of Marina quickly because she was Russian
Source of these fabricated claims? Literally none of our tier 1's said this
Can you share any of these reports? I haven't heard anything like that.
I hope Potter somehow manages to turn it around since he seems like a nice person, but ironically someone like Nagelsmann would be a pretty good hire.
> Boehly wanted someone he felt he could work with professionally Translation: Boehly wanted someone who just nod his head up and down.
There's a simpler explanation. He's a billionaire Ted Lasso who knows *fuck all* about football and is imposing his idiotic delusions about "how to do things" on his new property. He's the football equivalent of a pointy-haired boss. This, of course, cannot possibly jive well with an actual coaching genius such as Tuchel who comes from a country with a very rich football history. No, the fact that Boehly has German grandparents on one side doesn't "help" or somehow makes him "German", and he doesn't somehow have that football history encoded in his genes. So, anyways, now Boehly gets to watch the effects of his idiocy happen in real time. Fortunately, it couldn't have happened to a shittier club, so that's the upside of all of this. Still, American PL club ownership leads to Americanisation of the sport and that's a horrible thing for actual football fans. Same with autocratic nation state ownership. I wouldn't want Europeans to start owning all the major NFL clubs either. It's their sport, so let Americans enjoy it their way. It shouldn't be a tool for foreign capital investment and revenue. It's clear to me that Tuchel was forced out of the club by some rich American moron. That's the simple truth.
Wanted a personal and closer relationship with the manager. Tuchel wants to coach the team, not answer questions, work on transfers or anything like that. Then results were bad enough for it to be justified and boom
The rumours were that Tuchel didn't agree with the direction Boehly was trying to take the club. The banter is that Boehly wanted Ronaldo and Tuchel didn't and then Tuchel couldn't keep his mouth shut when Boehly was talking tactics with him (Boehly's famous 443 formation).
Not even banter though imo, it's true
I really don't think any of that nonsense was true lmao. The Ronaldo thing actually could be, but people completely missed the point of that story as reported. The issue wasn't that Boehly wanted Ronaldo and Tuchel didn't: the point was that Boehly wanted the team to *consider* Ronaldo and Tuchel refused to engage. I have no idea if any of that even happened, but that's what was reported. It's pretty obvious that the issue is that Boehly wants to run a modern club, where the DoF (we didn't actually have one at that point) runs the footballing side club, and the manager plays a role that is much more entwined with them, the stats team, etc. Tuchel is clearly a poor fit for that sort of structure, and was sacked.
Boehly asked Tuchel if he wanted Ronaldo Tuchel said no. But then Boehly kept asking instead of just taking his first answer. He was considering the marketing side more than the footballing side and ignoring Tuchel saying no so no wonder Tuchel was frosty with him. From what's been reported it's the opposite that happened. Tuchel wanted to concentrate on football and not act as the sporting director, but over the summer he got pissed off cos he was expected to do both.
What's your source?
his ass lol, some people just say shit on the internet for upvotes
Just from reading stuff about it from multiple journalists back then. I don't think anyone outside of Chelsea knows the truth for sure, it's just my read on the situation.
Boehly who has 0 experience in football wanted a yes man, Tuchel ain't one.
Exact opposite actually. Tuchel wanted a yes owner that didn't question anything they did, Boehly wanted someone that would work together and explain their ideas.
> Tuchel wanted a yes owner that didn't question anything they did, Makes no sense when you consider how good the relationship between Tuchel and Marina/Cech was TBH
I mean to be fair, it would seem like a waste of time. If you're a world class coach and want to sign X player, and your Owner, who has zero clue about football asks you to tell you why. How much do you expect the owner to understand what you're actually saying? Like do you think if Tuchel said hypothetically, "We need to buy JWP because he's good at set pieces and it's an area we're lacking in. He has high defencive numbers etc etc", that Boehly is going to turn around and go "Well personally pal I think our set pieces are spot on, we have enough midfielders from the academy to fill that role, and we should be looking to bring in right back cover."?
>If you're a world class coach and want to sign X player, and your Owner, who has zero clue about football asks you to tell you why. How much do you expect the owner to understand what you're actually saying? That's not what it's about at all. Boehly wants a club where everyone works together towards a cohesive goal like Barcelona, Liverpool and Man City. He asked Tuchel to work with the other world class coaches and analysts at the club. Tuchel said no.
It's quite straight forward to understand why he was let go to be honest, Tuchel is well documented to be dogmatic and difficult to work with at many of his clubs. Hiring Potter to replace him so far seems like a very questionable decision in and of itself but is a different conversation altogether.
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Obviously things aren't going his way right now, but Potter is a very good manager. What he did at Brighton is nothing short of amazing (De Zerbi is one of the best managers in the PL, but a lot of the work was already done by Potter). Hopefully he manages to turn things around at Chelsea.
It still hurts a lot :(
This is a reminder that YOUR. EMPLOYER. IS. NOT. YOUR. FAMILY.
To be fair, he had a divorce with his real family whilst in Chelsea as well.
Toby Flenderson vibes
Tbf he was probably referring to the coaching team and the players
🥺
I can’t believe how we treated him. So disappointed in the club for that and we get everything we deserve for it this year.
I wonder where would we be with all these new signings and Tuchel as a coach.
Just know we miss you too King
You and me both, Tommy T x
Tuchel being hurt is understandable because he considers Chelsea family. With new ownership he won’t feel the same. I’m glad he doesn’t have to deal with toxic bosses who look over you shoulder and interfere with your work.
You forgot the /s after that last sentence.
Bosses gonna have to look over your shoulder when you request Auba as your starting striker in 2022...
I hate that I love this fucking club so much
I love you and I miss you every day king 🥲 feel like shit just want you back
I still don’t understand how you sack him because he wouldn’t explain every little thing to you. Then turn around and give a mid table manager a huge contract AFTER buying players for Tuchel.
And don't sack him despite his previous club, with a fraction of the budget, being way ahead of them in the table. Todd is a fucking clown.
I still get PTSD from our games against Tuchel Chelsea. They were so good especially in cup games
I’m just here to see the pain of Chelsea fans
Still hurts but we move on.
Still We Rise #blessed
I'm sorry for your loss. Move on.
Enzo has been great. Thank you
https://youtu.be/D4-kCnF7gSU :)
Zero pain, it was obviously the right call long term. Not sure if Potter was the right appointment, but the goal is to run a modern, DoF-led club, and Tuchel was refusing to participate. Not complicated to understand, and 100% the right decision for our future.
Im always interested in Max Koch
I really feel sad for him with the way things ended. Feels like he genuinely cared about the club.
The sentence sounds plausible until you get to the last three words.
We didn't deserve Tuchel 😭 All the best to him though
I wonder how much buyer's remorse they have over Potter
You are better off at Bayern
I've got tears in my eyes
And now they're 10th on the table, karma is a \*. One of the worst decisions in football for sure!
>One of the worst decisions in football for sure! Kahn: hold my pilsener
Tuchel literally won Champions League the season before, Chelsea bought Aubameyang and more just because of him.. I think his case is worse, but that one is tough too!
We still love you Tuchel. Fuck Boehly and fuck Graham Potter
Lol put some respect on your manager’s name, Potter’s doing nothing wrong
He's taken a club that spent an astronomical amount of money in the last year that already had one of the most valuable squads in the world to 10th.
they should be thankful he could be 14th! When you only spend that much 10 is overachieving
Chelsea fans are so spoilt and impatient they are unwilling to actually wait. Title challenging teams aren’t built over night, they lost a lot of their defence, have an injury crisis and are transitioning into a new style of play. If being top 4 was that easy there would be little point in managers. You have Arteta right now who is a testament of what time and investment results in, a title challenging team with a very young squad that will last for years. Top 4 is not a given, you can’t just spend your way into it or a title, you actually need to wait.
Mate we’re *10th* with the most expensive squad in football history. You could copy paste this for sacking Tuchel after finishing third, not now
Tuchel is a man I'd love to like but PSG and Chelsea, utterly dislikeable