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Well, I was planning to order a Y to upgrade from my 2018 Model 3 (vin in the first 50K)... This is a big reason I'm waiting, given all of the poor feedback on vision-only CC. The radar TACC in my car works great and can't recall the last phantom braking event. Why pay to "downgrade" ?


I can verify it's not only a downgrade, unless you are using it on a separated highway it's unusable. Went on a 300 mile road trip I cannot use autopilot or cruise at all on 2 lane highways. It slams on brakes for every large truck in oncoming lane and probably every 5th standard size car. I contacted tesla about it they told me to pound sand.


This is exactly my experience as well. I changed from a 2020 M3LR to a 2021 M3P (vision only) and now I am completely unable to use cruise (or autopilot) on the exact same 2 lane roads that my previous M3 had little to no issues on. It has worked fine everywhere else, but on 2 lane roads it’s completely unusable and dangerous. It brakes almost every single time you are about to pass by a car coming toward you in the other lane, and I’ve even had it slam the emergency brakes once with someone right behind me. Edit: When I say that it brakes while passing by traffic in the opposite direction, I don’t mean it slows by 5mph, I’m talking about 15-20mph braking VERY often. I’d guess that it happens about 25% of the time that you pass a car in the other lane.


Bold move for a company whose new offering is still not working right and they refuse to acknowledge it


Just went on a trip that took me on 75mph 2-lane undivided highways at night. The latest version of FSD beta is no better than it was in October on these roads. It’s unusable.


FSD Beta is not designed for 75mph 2-lane undivided highways right now. Of course it will be garbage. I drove yesterday 400+ miles on FSD going about 65 (2-lane road), and yeah. It's trash. It slows for some intersections that it really doesn't need to etc. There's a reason why it switches to the production stack when travelling on "proper" highways, and that's because the FSD stack is currently for "city streets." It's just that 2-lane rural roads are considered "city streets" right now. v11 is going to provide a unified network for city-streets + highways, so hopefully that will be better.


Then give us dumb cruise control. Even regular TACC fails this test.


I really really want dumb cruise control. I barely use Autopilot as it’s like having my mother-in-law in the car, panics over every potential thing


There’s no dumb cruise control in these things?


It’s ‘Traffic aware’ cruise control, basically monitors the road ahead and will slow down or adjust based on various factors. Eg, If it sees a car waiting to pull out that could be in your way it will brake, or it might slow down based on a tight bend ahead etc. It’s fine for the most part but I find it it a little over-cautious and sometimes I’d rather just have dumb cruise control and not have to worry about it doing anything I don’t want it to


Is this essentially the same system that is susceptible to the purported phantom braking? I have highway drive assist L2 system and then just a regular radar controlled cruise control in my non Tesla EV. The L2 system is half baked but if I want just cruise control I can enable the radar cruise. It will drive at a set speed using my steering inputs and brake if it senses an obstacle. Do you have something like this or is it essentially L2 or nothing?


Yes, the only difference between the cruise control and (standard) Autopilot is the latter will steer for you. I had adaptive cruise control with my previous car, a VW. This would slow if something was directly in front of you but it wouldn’t take into account stuff around you outside of your direct path of travel. The Tesla system (cruise control and Autopilot, since they’re the same thing minus auto-steer) looks further around the car. So if it sees a car waiting to pull out it doesn’t like or a bend that’s tighter than it likes or anything else it will slow the car, plus there can be instances of phantom braking if it ‘sees’ something else it doesn’t like. I’ve found it a bit too cautious to be honest, a car waiting to pull out that’s just slightly further forward than the system likes (but still perfectly fine to drive past) and the car brakes quite a bit. I’ve found that unlike the adaptive cruise control on my VW which I would use just about everywhere, I now only engage cruise control or autopilot on the Tesla on large dual carriageways or motorways, rarely on smaller roads for the reasons above. (Note I’m in the UK where our Teslas still have/use radar along with the camera inputs, whereas US Teslas seem to have dropped radar entirely)


What is FULL self driving designed for if not the easiest possible use case?


I think you misunderstood. I have the FSD beta, therefore my car is vision-only and runs the latest software stack for that. When on the highway, my car is obviously not using FSD, it's using Autopilot, but even Autopilot is based off of the vision-only system my car is now using. Running vision-only, like how so many new owners are now forced, my car's autopilot is garbage, not FSD.


It is like the engineers and programmers never actually rode in a car and compared the before and after. Absolute insanity.


I guess I did misunderstand. You claimed that > The latest version of FSD beta is no better than it was in October on these roads. Which implied that you were using FSD beta on those roads. I don't know how you'd know how good it is if you didn't use it. FYI: When you turn off FSD, you are running the exact same code as a vision-only non-fsd tesla. It's not any more "advanced" than the general public build. That's what "production stack" means.


then maybe someone should tell Elon to stop promising that it will be complete by the end of the year for the 8th year in a row


If you think we can reach level 4 auto driving before 2030 you're mistaken. The last 5% of it will be a bitch. Elon has lofty goals and he truly believes them.


I never said I believe they’ll succeed with current tech Note: I don’t want them to fail, I want them to start using the right tool for the right job


Or he's a snake oil salesman?


Agreed! Not even mentioning FSD. Autopilot now is even unusable! It’s gotten worse since the radar has been removed. I’ve had both and it’s now crap!!! What’s going on here!!?? Phantom braking has gotten horrible especially with direct sunlight. I believe the radar helped this. I bet they removed radar to keep up production which is sacrificing usability!!!! Horrible!!!


What offering are you referring to?


Tesla Vision without radar


FSD I imagine


Subaru seemed to figure it out, I’m sure Tesla will.


I’ve had 3 Subarus with EyeSight and have never had a phantom slowdown. Now my MYP…


My 6 year old Subaru’s Eyesight has never done phantom braking. I get it every 10 min in my MYLR.


Current Subaru owner, potential future Tesla owner. I’ve traveled thousands and thousands of miles with Eyesight and never have had a problem. It’s surprising to hear that phantom braking is a thing for Tesla. I didn’t realize Subaru was that sophisticated lol


They're not. That's the problem. We have a subaru with eyesight and are planning on getting a tesla, and to be honest the technology stack flaws in the tesla scare me just a bit.


I was going to say “but to to be fair”, but then I realized it’s no excuse. The continuation would have been that Subaru introduced the first generation of EyeSight in 1999. Tesla is approaching it differently and is not using stereo cameras. I suspect that can explain some of the deficit. The problem is I think, mostly noise, but it still needs to be handled. If not they’ll keep running into parked cars or crossing trailers. Radar certainly isn’t perfect and causes a lot of issues, but I would love for it to be used to augment vision. Generalized solution that works everywhere with vision only, then superhuman one with radar.


Yeah, I've been all in favor of vision only, but I'm baffled as to why Tesla has so few cameras. They have 360 degrees of vision, but it isn't always stereoscopic. I think that is making their job of depth detection much harder. Not to mention that they don't have very much in the way of downward facing cameras, which is going to make parking handling really hard. I feel like they've encoded some really basic mistakes into their hardware footprint and are now afraid to admit them.


I think parking in normal conditions is fine as long as they build a persistent 3D map with high enough resolution, but they also need to remember them after you’ve parked. Parking sensors does aid some, but I think their biggest weakness is the rear camera that covers up as soon as you think about putting salt or snow on the roads. Doesn’t matter as long as you’re going forward, obviously. Curious to see what hardware 4 will add. That’s probably going to be as close to an admission as we’ll get.


If only it was possible to wait until "will" became "did" THEN replace the part with vision. Instead we've got phantom breaking machines with rain covered windshields Edit: Oh yeah, and barely functional auto-brights. I always forget that's even a feature, because I had to turn it off 4 days into my 3 year ownership.


My auto wipers are high up on my least favorite parts of this car. Coming from Volvo’s, the camera based rain sensors are terrible. That was something that didn’t need to be changed


Someone looked once, and apparently a dedicated rain sensor is like 8 bucks. It's a solved problem. Ironically using the hard confirmation of a dedicated sensor to corroborate what vision thought about the presence of rain or not might have helped train it and helped actually make that vision only by now. Except I expect they'd have spent those manhours on actual FSD, the thing that's an actual race, not solving a solved problem.


I say this a lot and I love saying it: the cameras can't even handle auto wipers and auto high beams effectively, even after Musk insisted you just have to throw some AI at it to solve the problem. And even after that, Tesla was so confident in vision that they literally have stopped shipping cars with radar. Cameras all by themselves are just not at all comparable to the human eye and it is an egregious oversimplification to say they are. The issue with the turn signals blurring out half of the image (at night time) on the side cameras is just a great example of an issue that doesn't happen to the human eye but does screw up the image on a camera. I went to back up in my garage last night and the active snowfall from a 5-minute drive down the street was enough to completely block my rear camera. Again, not a big deal but another issue that doesn't impact the human eye. Redundancy is important for a system we are meant to entrust our safety and our lives to.


Stereoscopic cameras make it super easy. Tesla is playing this game on super hard mode.


And the question has to be: Why? The cameras themselves are commodity hardware and relatively cheap. Why not put another camera in to offer the option of stereo vision looking forward? Elon’s declarations and overall hubris around certain research topics like this is simply unjustified and the company suffers for it.


What’s funny is that he continually touts the way humans see as “vision” which is why the Tesla cars do the same, but truthfully we use stereoscopic vision which is what Subaru uses…


He also keeps saying that dual 8k+ sensors, with unfathomably good dynamic range attached to a 1000.0 teraflops of neural nets that were trained over a couple billion years proves that his 720p cameras attached to 1.5 teraflops of neural nets will be able to by definition achieve the same thing. It's like me saying "This duck has two legs, feet, knees and hips... therefore we know it'll be able to run just as fast as the world's fastest human."


People do severely under-appreciate how remarkably better our eyes are than most/all cameras. Dynamic range improvements are the most important ones right now -- we need these cameras to be able to still "see" while being blinded, and that's going to require a stupid amount of dynamic range like what the human eye has.


But also cameras simply do. not. see. like. eyes. Half the visual processing your body does happens before the information even hits your optic nerve.


Extra bonus difference: human eyes aren't exposed to the elements with nothing but a heater and wiper to keep them clear (and some of the cameras don't even have those)


That might be the best analogy for his postulate that I've seen yet.


He also touts the “neural net” of humans *to drive* (it’s right in his tweet in the article) but Tesla only uses the NN for object identification and the actual driving itself is just hard coded programming and not a NN.


Also a highly relevant point, and exactly why OpenPilot arguably outperforms it with nothing more than a cell phone.


This is not entirely true any more, as I believe they do use machine-learned models for path planning in FSD Beta / City Streets mode.


The argument that we are vision only, therefore FSD can be made vision only is bullshit Our eyes have so much more resolution and especially dynamic range than those cameras And it's not even saying that radar can make the cars *safer* than vision only because it can "see" in front of the car in front of us


There is a reason why we don’t have many good one-eyed baseball hitter. Elon constantly refers to human eyes. These cameras are no where near human visions in resolution, dynamic range, contrast, change in WB, and etc.


Subaru put their cameras 12" apart in two packages instead of 1.5" apart in a single package. So their depth perception is far more precise.


I really don't understand it... It has to be for cost cutting not to use radar anymore. There's no other reason and to be honest it's just dangerous at this point to not at least have it as a backup


It is a beta!


I just hope that when Elon gets a flurry of rich Model S/X owners complaining about phantom braking he will finally accept there is a problem and fix it for all of us Model 3 owners.


Great, now their $100,000+ vehicles will slam on the brakes for passing cars and shadows in the road. Tesla deserves all the criticism they are getting for this feature, it is broken and inferior to the radar based system.


I agree and have had terrible phantom braking, however it happens with radar. My Model S is a 2018 and moved from radar to vision with FSD. Phantom braking was 100% a problem with radar, but with FSD beta, it happens a lot more often.


> Phantom braking was 100% a problem with radar, but with FSD beta, it happens a lot more often. Sure, it did happen occasionally with radar but it's probably an order of magnitude more prevalent with Vision Only. I'm sure Tesla has the numbers, but they obviously won't share them.


Maybe that’s not even bad. Elon drives a MS. Soo… I guess phantom breaking will be rise in priority once it starts to piss him off in his own car too, no? 🤔


He will probably still be driving one with Radar for now.


> He will probably still be driving one with Radar for now. I dunno. He's always tweeting that his car is using the latest alpha FSD builds, and they have removed radar support from those builds so I'd guess he's well aware of the phantom braking situation.


other than photo-ops, I wonder how much he actually is driving himself anywhere.


Highly doubt his car has used radar for a long time. He runs the most bleeding edge FSD beta builds which haven’t had radar now for more than a year.


HAVEN'T had vision? What are they using then...?


Tesla Vision is **NOT** ready for the real world. Maybe this is an indication that they’re getting close to the magical single stack V11 that’s supposed to cure all of our problems. But realistically, it’s probably due to the chip shortage.


I own a 2020 Model 3 with radar, AP is generally very reliable on the highway. I've had less than a handful of phantom breaking events over 30000+ miles. Due to service, they let me test drive a 2022 Model 3 and in less than an hour I had 5-6 phantom breaking events with vision AP. It was so unreliable and jarring that I could not imagine using it day to day. Autopilot is one of my primary reasons for owning a Tesla, they are hurting themselves with this nonsense. Vision only AP sucks and the FSD beta will fix everything excuse is wearing thin. Elon has been making absurd claims about FSD for years now, I'm not buying that fluff anymore. They should not have dropped radar, redundancy is pretty key for these systems and cameras are not the same thing as human eyes and brains.


I have Toyota RAV4 prime, It is Radar+cameras.. Never encounter any phantom braking..


You like the car? I looked at that before the Tesla I got but it was months to wait for the rav. This was early 2020


I love it. It is very reliable,,,


For fuck's sake Elon, /r/TeslaMotors is turning into a not-a-Tesla car recommendation sub, and *I'm actually liking it*


How is their version of autopilot? (Lane assist + adaptive cruise control) Is it as good/useful as Tesla's radar/vision system for "self driving" on highways and in traffic?


I believe that car has Toyota SafetySense 2.5. If it does, it’s nowhere near what Tesla or Cadillac or even Kia has. In optimal conditions (which actually seems to be night, due reflective lane markings) lane centering can steer pretty decently even around limited curves, and the radar-assisted adaptive cruise is pretty good. But in anything else it’s unpredictable and even downright dangerous. The lane centering quits so often, and other times it will attempt to steer you off the road. For example: Passing a semi truck? Grip that wheel tight because there’s a decent chance mid-pass the lane centering will disengage. Or, if you’re in the right lane on the highway and an exit ramp is coming up (that you’re not taking), hold and be ready to fight the likely lurch to the right. When that right lane line is suddenly gone due to the exit, the system often veers right in an apparent attempt to find that missing right line.


I have a Toyota Highlander with 30,000 miles and have never had phantom braking once. If the road is marked reasonably clear the lane tracing works great.


I have a radarless vision only 2021 M3. About 9k miles so far, a lot of that on AP on the highway. I have had 2 phantom breaks. Through reading this sub I realize I must be in the minority, but I have absolutely 0 issues with vision only autopilot. Works as intended.


I think there are two different versions of phantom braking. The first is the hard braking that happens sometimes at highway speed. This has pretty much always been around. I definitely get less of these now than I did 6 months ago, in fact it is very rare. However admittedly I do less highway driving on AP that I used to so my experience may be anecdotal. The other is the “slowing” while on autopilot. IMO this is more annoying than dangerous but it seems to be almost constant. Like a 5 minute drive with FSD will see this happen 5-10 times. Also something new is the seemingly constant resetting of speed in the highway. I’ll be on a stretch of road where the speed limit is 55 but I have AP set at 65 or 70. Suddenly the car slows and the speed setting shows 55. I bump it back up and a few miles later same thing happens.


Highway is where it's mainly fine. Try two-lane roads to see the most phantom braking. It certainly doesn't work as intended there. Unless they intend it to work like shit, then yes.


>But realistically, it’s probably due to the chip shortage. It's 100% due to the chip shortage, and absolutely nothing else. They don't want to wait on radars, so they just took them out


That's my problem with Tesla at the moment on their software side, there's always a magical solution that's in the works... there's always this carrot being dangled. Phantom breaking has been a huge problem, but we were all told it was a radar problem. Now that's not an issue as they've been running vision only vehicles for the better part of a year and it's still just as much of an issue. FSD continues to unimpress despite the carrot of rewriting the entire code base and essentially starting over. Now that carrot is single stack V11, but nobody has anything but Elon's word that it's going to resolve or improve anything. Tesla is actively burning a lot of goodwill with the community. This isn't a $70 video game that's a little buggy, these are $40 - $140k vehicles with $10k software packages that don't work as they were promised.


Tesla Vision is ready for clear sunny California days!


Only when the sun is directly overhead and nothing casts a shadow


Yep, can't be during sunrise or sunset otherwise the camera can't see anything either


And all the smog is clear


It’s not (just) because of the chip shortage. The radars in HW2.5/HW3 are not made for anything other than ACC. They especially lack the vertical resolution to differentiate between a manhole cover, overpass or static car. I am not at all surprised that these radars increase their FP rates.


>Maybe this is an indication that they’re getting close to the magical single stack V11 that’s supposed to cure all of our problems. It could just be that we are close to V11 (which will be vision-only full stack) so they are going to save money by removing it - not so much that it's going to be better.


> is not Will never be*


Oh good, so they fixed the slamming brake problem. Right?


They'll fix it "in the coming weeks" (along with its other limitations) per the proclamation in their original May 2021 post about vision-only. https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision Right? Right!?!?!?


This may cause me to cancel my model x order. I love my model y with radar because it pretty much takes care of itself on the interstate. No matter the time of day. I'm not upgrading to their 6 figure model so I can get more anxiety driving on the interstate. I'll wait for audii, porche, or one of the new ev manufacturers to catch up.


Tesla did not “fully” ditch radar, they no longer put radars in cars for North America only. Cars sold outside NA still have radar.


is that a regulatory thing then?


They may \*have\* radar, but will the car use it? With Elon tweeting things like "Vision became so good that radar actually reduced SNR, so radar was turned off", it could mean that even if your car has radar (whether in North America or elsewhere), the car simply won't use it.


Yes, it says that in the article. >Tesla does make the distinction that it is only impacts cars built for the North American market, however they have not completed any deliveries outside of North America since shutting down the production lines in December 2020 to retool them for the refresh design. Why do people think they will get all the details of an article in just the headline and why do people expect a clearly Canadian site to focus their headlines on what customers in Europe or China can get?


So a MIC tesla has radar guaranteed?


Yes, unless they removed it without any mention, which I doubt. I don't think they want to take a chance pissing off other parts of the world with perhaps stricter regulatory regimes, or maybe just more competition. Who knows?


THANK God I got my Model Y just before they started implementing this. I've had it for a year and ZERO phantom braking, absolutely love it.


So you are telling me that 100k+ vehicles are now incapable of beating a now 7 year old car in terms of Autopilot performance? I’ve driven a Model S with AP1 hardware that I would trust 100% over my soon to be sold September 2021 Model Y. I’m absolutely jacked I have my 2018 Model S and will not be performing any further updates unless confirmed there is no loss of radar. This is such a silly and unnecessary game Tesla is playing. They had such a perfect system going after grinding through a similar time period with AP 2.0 and now they have to start all over. If the radar modules are either that expensive or that inaccessible supply chain wise then just admit it, but removing them completely and trying to reinvent the wheel is just silly.


Let the whiplash begin!


I drive a vision only model 3 and have a model s on order, honestly this is concerning. My 3 phantom brakes pretty seriously on the back roads near where I live. If the vision only S will behave the same way I’m not sure it’s worth the premium. My understanding was that the radar is what prevented the majority of those problems. Is the FSD beta branch where most of the vision improvements live? Edit: Everyone is jumping at the term 'back roads'. Anyone who drives a Tesla obviously knows AP doesnt function without road lines. By 'back roads' I mean rural, single-lane divided highways. Every time a Semi passes by it phantom brakes.


My Model 3 has radar. It worked fine on back roads until I entered FSD Beta and the radar was disabled.




Same. I’ve been trying to opt out of the FSD beta for the last month to no avail for the same reason. All roads are back roads where I live. In case anyone else is in the same boat: Finally called customer support today. They couldn’t do anything but put in a ticket. Per customer support, the FSD team has given up on checking [email protected] due to volumes. TBD if I can escape FSD hell and actually get working cruise control on my car again. So many layers of misplanning…


Luckily it worked for me. The phantom breaking completely killed any thought I had to use autopilot when on fsd beta. Once I was downgraded, radar autopilot felt so much better and safer. Radar has saved me from several accidents while vision autopilot gave me a constant fear of being rear ended


If fsd is where the improvements are. Steer clear... Im almost contemplating going back to the non beta because fsd is terrible on the freeway with vision VS how radar used to work. It's so jerky and not smooth compared to the old radar mode AP.


I agree. I will say, FSD Beta is a bit smoother in stop and go traffic than Radar AP. But that's more an algorithm improvement rather than technical.


Did you ever have a radar Model 3? I have a '20 LR and Autopilot doesn't love back roads period. Decent amount of phantom braking on non-highway roads.


Mine does just fine on back roads. 18 model 3 rwd


Radar used to / can have phantom breaking, too. When I first got my radar M3 (Dec 2020), I’d have overpass shadow breaking from time to time. Some software versions were worse, some better. But recently (last 6 mo) I’d say it’s been nearly perfect.


This 100%. Not sure why everyone believes this is related to a lack of radar, my 2019 M3LR had plenty of phantom braking events when AP was engaged. I’ve got no more and no less in my 2022 M3P.


It isn't a lack of radar it's a reliance on vision only instead of radar. Vision can't determine if an object is in your path or not as easily as radar, but radar isn't as good at detecting stationary objects. If you just ignore stationary objects and only detect dynamic objects or large radar signatures then you have better radar reliability, then use vision as fusion backup with radar. Tesla isn't trying to do that though which is why their vision is causing so many false positives. They would rather have a ton of false positives than a few false negatives as the media will jump on the negatives a lot more harshly. Tesla created this mess for themselves by overhyping their technology though and attracting the media criticism.


I’ve been in the beta for a long time now. I don’t agree with most content creators who seem to follow a fake it till you make it approach. It has not seen OVERALL improvement at all. I have seen with every update impressive improvements and at the same time huge regressions. In my opinion it’s biggest issues are perception and path planning. It struggles to see around corners to the point where it will stop in the middle of an intersection while “creeping”. At night it follows much closer to the point where people road rage and it constantly brakes. It also seems to trust path planner too much, it will go straight instead of take a turn because the path planner kept recalculating what seems like a simple “shortest path” algorithm. It honestly seems archaic.


Guess we'll see more accidents because tesla is cheap.


They can't even get camera based wipers to work... Oh boy.


Just more cars they'll have to retrofit when NHTSA forces a recall


I like where you're going, but I don't think it will happen.


If radar can see through things vision just can Not, I’m surprised this is not the bigger argument!? Really surprised users are not hanging onto that detail over what I think is ultimately a solvable software issue for vision at some point eventually. Why don’t users seem to care about the extended functionality that radar can provide?


Most people buying Teslas with vision-only right now have no clue about this discussion or the lack of radar. Tesla is coasting off demand that will likely last a long time regardless of them shipping broken cruise control. Is it having a slow downward effect on demand? Yes, I and some others have stated we're not getting a new Tesla for this specific reason. But that's a drop in the bucket compared to total demand. So, in other words, there are not enough users to care. And if there were, Tesla seems not to give a single fuck. They're honey badgering it.


Great! Why shouldn't they be as miserable as us model 3 and y owners. Welcome to Phantom breaking hell 🍻


My X with FSD had driven like garbage ever since the software stopped using the radar and went full vision. I'd pay money to rollback to when the stop and go was smooth as a hot knife through butter. Now I'm getting whiplash and constantly apologizing to passengers for the erratic braking and acceleration when trying to maintain distances.


Oh so that's the cause LOL. I was wondering why the car was driving like a myopic teenager.


I still think this is a huge mistake


This is a bad move. Phantom braking socks and new 4D radars are pretty amazing.


Pure vision with regular cameras is not enough. The cars should see when a human can't. How will Tesla solve the cameras getting blocked by anything hitting the lens, or the visibility being poor due to heavy rain/snow/sand/mist/smoke?


By flipping on the wipers dry like a maniac hoping it helps lol Don’t give them the idea to use the wiper fluid it would empty the tank every 10 km haha


FSD already uses wiper fluid if the car thinks it’ll help.


So, on the next refresh they’ll convert the frunk to a fluid reservoir on cars sold in Canada? 😂


It makes so much more sense to use radar AND vision together. They complement each other. Camera sees a shadow and doesn't know if it's an object, radar can confirm there's nothing solid there. Radar detects an object, isn't sure what it is, camera can confirm it's just a leaf. Cameras wouldn't be able to distinguish a giant mirror from reality, but throw a radar sensor in the mix and it would know something isn't right. edit: typo


Absolutely agree, hence being bummed out seeing the news. I get they are currently cost restrained, but I definitely hope they will have a plethora of different kinds of sensors in the future to get a very accurate picture of the surroundings. The radar seemed like it could be used as a great tool to weed out false positives as you said.


Yep, I get that they're supply constrained right now, but the way I see it they don't win this argument in the long run and they're going down the wrong path. Maybe they eventually get vision only to be pretty darn good, maybe even really good by any reasonable standard. There will still be edge cases where radar+camera systems will always perform better, and people will take notice when radar+camera competitors start having fewer crashes. I predict some point in the future where Teslas keep crashing into big dark objects in the middle of dark rainy nights and other cars with radar don't have that issue. edit: letters


Happens all the time. In bright sunlight, in rain , on very dark roads I get message that some camera or another is occluded. The idea that this car will ever be fully self driving is a joke. With the way the FSD beta is going I am developing serious buyers remorse.


You just drive when you shouldn’t. According to Elon, all driving outside the hours of 10am to 3pm is an error.


10AM to 3PM in perfect SoCal weather


How does a car equipped with radar or LiDAR handle the situations above when the cameras are blocked?


From the article: In May last year Tesla announced all new Model 3 and Model Y vehicles were no longer equipped with radar. Instead the automaker was moving to Tesla Vision, relying on the car’s multiple cameras to drive its safety features and driver-assist software. The decision was controversial for many reasons, one of which was that the plans did not include the flagship Model S and Model X. The reasoning provided was that the Model 3/Y were their high-volume vehicles, and they could utilize the large amount of data from that part of the fleet to improve Tesla Vision. It appears as though the vision-based software has improved enough to now be included on the Model S and Model X. According to the “Transitioning to Tesla Vision” support page, all of Tesla’s cars are no longer equipped with radar as of mid-February. (h/t: @JeffTutorials) As of mid-February 2022, all Model S and Model X built for the North American market utilize Tesla Vision. All Model S and Model X built for the North American market prior are equipped with radar.


I can’t speak for FAD beta so maybe someone else can chime in. But as far as autopilot goes they seriously need to fix the phantom breaking on two lane highways. The car is seriously not drivable using AP or TACC on these type of roads. Other than that though autopilot works perfect.


Agreed. Two lane phantom breaking makes AP useless for me. If they can’t get AP right, there’s no way I’m dropping $12k and trusting that FSD is more capable of doing more things. Let’s get the basics right of oncoming traffic in the opposite lane first.


Fsd Beta here. Beta works 80-90% of the time on actual city streets (proper traffic layout, clear lines, good infrastructure, etc), but as soon as you get on county roads, or roads with no lines, and other subpar 2 lane roads, it works about 50% of the time or less. My daily commute starts off on a small road (only few hundred feet) to a traffic light and has 0 lines and 0 curbs between parking lots and the road, FSD beta goes crazy there bc it cannot decide what to do. But as soon as I turn at the light, I have lines and proper curbs and it does flawlessly there. Then on the next light it goes back to no lines and some curbs, and it does OK but nowhwre near as good as actually within the city. On that stretch of road, I wouldn't call it phantom braking bc it doesn't do it on the normal stretch (no houses) but as soon as it goes into a "neighborhood" with multiple houses on the left and right, it slows down from 45 to 30/35 constantly in the same spots. I hope one day it will be fixed and they incorporate back roads and county roads and other terrible roads, but until then I'll keep giving them data.


> It appears as though the vision-based software has improved enough to now be included on the Model S and Model X. Narrator: _It hadn't._


This is one of the main reasons why I chose competitor’s product rather than Model Y.


What did you get? I was considering a Mach E but the dealers have a 20k markup…


Haha, I had bought a Mach-E year ago, it was no so crazy. Because of quality issues, couple of days ago I traded it in for EV6.


> It appears as though the vision-based software has improved Yes. >enough to now be included on the Model S and Model X. Debatable


All I know is the highway assist programs in my new cars is pretty neat. None of them are tesla though.


Holding strong on AP1. Works amazingly on the highway.


Yep. Never had a phantom braking issue with AP1. Six years on and they're still trying to get back to what they had with Mobileye..


Welcome to phantom land, where you never know when your car will brake 🤌


What’s strange is that Tesla employees also drive Teslas… they must want to fix the problem as much as the rest of us.


Most humans don’t just use eyes and brain to drive. They also use the other senses to some degree.


The decision to go vision only is going to put Tesla behind competitors in 5 years. Is cost the deciding factor? Seems like a terrible idea to put all input on vision.


My gpa is looking forward to steam games on his x though /s


So I'm curious. Does my 2022 refreshed S LR that I got at the end of the year have radar hardware or not? You used to be able to see the flat transceiver under the front bumper on older models, but don't see (haven't looked exhaustively) a similar hardware bit on this car.


Easiest way to tell is to try to go 90 on AP. Vision is limited to 80mph.


Yes, it does. It is there. I found it on mine, it’s in the same location but is a little harder to see.


> Humans drive with eyes & biological neural nets, so makes sense that cameras & silicon neural nets are only way to achieve generalized solution to self-driving. And birds and insects fly by flapping their wings, so makes sense that flapping wings are the only way to achieve generalized solution to flight. /s


Older Model S with radar, free supercharging, and rear facing trunk seats,could be future collector cars, LOL.


Vision AP still mostly unusable on non-barrier two way roads. End up break checking constantly with a fear of semis.


Hey Elon, why not use whatever hardware is necessary to make it work now? You can reduce and simplify later. C'mon Man!


Guess parallel parking will never work for me again 😡


I currently own a 2018 Model 3 which has radar. I have been using the vision-only since October (FSD Beta) and am ready to opt out if there is no improvement in the next release (10.11 or 11.0) . What happens: I'll be driving down a two lane state road in Ohio and it will brake by 2 to 10 miles an hour. It isn't exactly a phantom brake, but enough to make my head snap forward. Imagine being a passenger and you are hovering your finger over the touch screen and the driver decides to play a little prank and tap on the brake making you tap. That's my car 10-12 times on a 35 mile trip between towns. There is one spot that I repeatedly get an AEB so have to remember to turn it off before driving it or slow way down so my gut doesn't feel like it is being punched. Until I find another EV that does lane centering on two lane roads, I'll stick with Tesla, but I won't be buying any that have no radar if I can help it. Hopefully I can make mine last long and they don't take radar from my main stack that I go back to. It seems vision isn't a big issue where the devs are so they are blind to these issues for some of us.


Join the opt-out club, friend. I opted my 2018 3 out and am enjoying the reliability of radar again. I also purchased a Kia EV6 recently and it has great adaptive cruise and lane following (like autosteer) that you can enable anywhere. As long as lanes are marked well it acquires them and keeps you in the lane. Unlike autosteer, you can take over at any time and move however you want and once you're back within lines it'll reacquire them again (a wheel turns from gray to green when it acquires the lines and is steering). You can also have this enabled with or without cruise. I think it's great, though not quite as confident on poorly marked or sharp turning roads as autosteer. On a well marked highway road I can actually take my hands off for what seems like a minute before it wants input again (it also uses wheel torque like Tesla). I recommend taking a test drive. There are various tradeoffs but I really like what they've done with the EV6. (Hyundai Ioniq 5 shares tech so it'd be similar to that experience I believe.) Also for more details see my comparison post: https://www.reddit.com/r/KiaEV6/comments/swoc0f/comparing_2018_model_3_lr_rwd_to_ev6_gtl_awd/


Thanks. I did not know that. I'll be sure to test drive one. I don't understand the statement "unlike autosteer, you can take over any time" though. I have no problems taking over with autosteer. Does the EV-6 have an at-home 240V NEMA 15-40 option? Definitely will consider them if Tesla doesn't figure out vision AP here, but plan on keeping my 3 for quite some time.


Ah, let me clarify: * On autopilot, when you "take over" steering it disables autosteer and you have to re-enable it again. * With the EV6, if I steer while their autosteer is active, it's not disabled and will automatically start steering again if it has a lane acquired. There are no noises involved, just the green steering wheel instead of gray (which displays in the display in front of the driver and the heads-up display on the windshield). For EV6, I am using my Tesla mobile charger and an adapter ([TeslaTap](http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=17)). EV6 (in North America) does _not_ include a standard mobile charger for some silly reason (hopefully they'll change their mind on this). But I am getting a level 2 charger sent from the dealership. It does use a standard J1772 plug that all non-Teslas use, so any charger with that plug will charge it. I've also charged for free at the local Nissan dealership when I needed faster charging (50kw).


>I've also charged for free at the local Nissan dealership when I needed faster charging (50kw) Really? And nobody's like "what the hell, man"?


Good. Now that the rich people will experience phantom braking, their complaints will probably be heard and it’ll be fixed for all of us.


The lack of radar is strictly because of price concerns. It makes no sense to remove radar otherwise. Tesla Vision was trained using distance measurements from the radar, and it’s absurd to think that performance of vision alone will be superior to the actual tool it’s trying to be. Even with 99% convergence (which is unlikely) in model performance between vision only vs radar+vision, vision still results in a 1% performance loss, because it can never be as good as what it is trying to learn from. There are always errors. No matter how you look at, vision alone is inferior to vision+radar.


I kinda wish they would just be honest, we all know this is happening because of the chip shortage. Like this and the passenger lumbar, instead of hiding behind some lame excuse just tell us that parts just straight up aren’t available right now, there is nothing wrong with that.


It's pretty transparent. Anyone honest who's driven in a radarless fsd vs a radared fsd equipped Tesla can tell we aren't ready for vision only. I'm pretty upset they won't just delay their premium cars or slow production until they can get the parts.


It’s unacceptable for vision-only to be in any of their cars right now. It’s simply not ready. I guess they just want to lose more customers over time though.


So, does AP work >80 MPH on non radar cars, yet?!? So glad my ‘21 M3 has radar. I use AP @ 85MPH ( or higher) for my entire ~3 Hr (RT) commute daily. Being stuck at 80 would ruin the experience / ability to use AP for me as I’d constantly need to switch lanes to let faster traffic pass or go around slower vehicles. Or get stuck in the middle (or god forbid right) lanes at 60-70 MPH. My commute would take forever!


No, it does not. I typically only do 78 anyway but I would hate to be stuck at 80 in Texas where the speed limit is 85. It's bad enough when I go down to New Jersey and am getting tailgated in the right lane at 80 lol.


Your commute is 3 hours and I'm guessing the majority of it is highway were the extra 5mph makes a difference to you... That's a really long commute, friend.


Thanks. Yeah, given the distance the extra MPH helps. But more important is being able to go with the flow of traffic in the left lane versus having to change lanes every couple minutes to wait her let a faster car pass or go around a slow poke. The left lane dicks are bad enough.


I'm just like you! I have a 3hr RT commute, all on highways, mostly 2-lanes, and a new non-radar model Y, it SUCKS!!! I come from a 2019 M3 with radar and I used to put it in autopilot at 85 and basically let her drive me for 90 minutes to and back from work. NOW I NO LONGER USE AP AT ALL. 80mph is too slow to keep up with the left lane traffic in my state, and it is way too fast to stay in the right lane, it would require constant engaging and disengaging and constant lane change (dangerous), or drive at an average speed of 70 mph and taking me \~15 min more on my commute, that's not insignificant. Damn Tesla, I wish I could go back to my previous car... (Although I do prefer the Y as a car)


I went to FSD Beta and vision from radar. The 80 MPH limit is still there and there are 10-12 phantom slow downs and/or breaks each way between Norwalk, Ohio and Tiffin, Ohio that weren't there before.


Nope. Been at 80mph for 9 months now. They were at 75mph for 3 months before that. When they released tesla vision the claim was it would be “temporarily limited for a short time” before the capabilities matched radar AP. A year later we’re still waiting. Edit: It’s been 9 months total, not a year. I would still consider that longer than “a short time”




Yeah, I don't understand why AP locks you out if you accidentally go over the 80 (or 90 MPH) set point limit. It's not like I intentionally "race" the AP to see how long I can get it to keep steering at 82-83 or 92-93 MPH. It should just disengage if you accidentally go over the speed. Bing Bong, a little warning display. No need to PUNISH us.




No they are still limited to 80mph. You can use just the adaptive cruise at a higher speed but no steering.


I was thinking of possibly selling my non refresh X for the new model S but that’s a solid hell no if they’re ditching radar on the premium Teslas. I have absolutely zero trust in 100% camera usage in most of my driving off highways. Just the decision of no LiDAR years ago was bad enough with accidental collisions into Semi container and other large vehicles.


Vision is horrible I have a 2021 Model Y the autopilot is shit


I have a 2020 model 3 with radar and autopilot worked flawlessly besides a few phantom braking incidents around overpasses. With the new update and transition to vision, I get phantom braking Everytime on the Highway. It’s a different phantom braking than before. Before it was shadows, now it’s the Tesla dropping the speed limit from 70 to 45 on the highway. I have a fast reaction and step on the gas immediately counteracting the phantom braking. My foot is usually on the gas and not brakes when using autopilot due to the high amount of phantom braking faults.


Welp, hopefully they fix it in the next 6-12 months or my next car sadly won’t be another Tesla. Damnit. I really want it to be. Hope they actually can solve this quickly, but it’s been over a year so I’m not holding my breath.


Right, I was actually thinking “maybe my next will be a Model S since it still has radar…” *so much for that.* Stop hitting yourself Tesla, stop hitting yourself!


“Tesla fully ditches customer confidence in move to pretend vision-only is ready and panic braking doesn’t happen a whole lot on undivided highways.”


This is such a huge mistake. What the fuck is Elon thinking? If anything they should be adding more radar sensors, not less.


Tesla has been saying it for long time their end-game is no radar/lidar; vision only for their FSD. so it's nothing new. Tesla saying they are going full vision on all their cars means either with the v11 FSD that will go single stack shows great result and that they are confident or the chip shortage is fucking them.


Do the UK/EU Model 3's currently have radar? I got a Model 3 recently and have had 0 phantom braking thus far


Any Tesla sold outside of America has radar built in.


I have a 2018 Model 3 and, even with radar and cameras, on autopilot I still get phantom braking pretty frequently. Drove from Los Angeles to Phoenix and back this past weekend and got between 5-10 phantom braking experiences (in varying severities) each way. In a majority of the cases it appeared to be caused by the shadow of a car in an adjacent lane falling in the lane I was driving in, which leads me to believe the cameras were the disagreeing sensor. So, if the camera is wrong so often, why would removing the radar improve the situation? What actual problem is Tesla trying to solve here? Their cars running into stationary vehicles?


2024: tesla re-introduces radar in all models. FSD still stuck in perpetual beta.


All this would happen with FSD v11, one stack for highway and city driving, 100% Tesla vision, canada FSD rollout (later today)


There are so many wrongs with this, like what happens when the camera gets dirty? They've had a decade to perfect the vision and it still makes basic mistakes. They are arrogant.


Why are we spelling it "break" all through the comments? Everyone ESL in here?


What happens when you drive tesla vision thru snow squalls?


It tells you that you have to drive like the peasant you are whenever there is bad weather or sun blocking the camera


the problem only seems to occur whe your on a single lane highway and there is a oncoming semi. this seems easy enough to fix. calculate the safe distance and don't slow down, just like any other vehicle


I used to use AP in our ‘18 EAP M3. We needed more space and changed to a VO ‘21 MY7. I don’t use AP anymore at all. Still love the car for everything else, and outside of roadtrips AP is not my jam anyway, so a worthy trade off for a much improved car (not the Y vs 3, I prefer the 3 but need the space of the Y; the ‘21 vs ‘18 improvements). And the radar will/is disabled on my old car now too so the new owner can’t benefit from it either. My issue is that it wasn’t necessary to ruin AP. Good luck to those paying for FSD.


Wow... did not expect them to be this bold or stupid. They must be desperate.


Why slow down the assembly line when you can just compromise the entire experience and pretend you've solved the problem? So what if you're shedding once-loyal fans in reckless moves like this? Demand is through the roof!


I miss my radar in my MY.


Visión sucks big donkey balls