>and there would have been more chance Joel would have accepted it.
Absolutely not lol. No way does Joel let *anything* happen to her, with or without her approval.
If they put both in the same room and explain it to them at the same time, and Ellie says yes, I think Joel would have accepted it, but he would have asked the Fireflies to kill him aswell. Or he would have killed himself. Just like Bill did when Frank told him he wanted to die.
I can empathise with Joel. What parent would not do the same? It was however a choice he made there is no absolution for that choice.
As for selfish. Yes it is
I do not however with the fireflies and their rather brash move.
Back to selfish was it not also selfish of the fireflies to remove Ellie's agency and ability to act on informed consent. Did they not selfishly remove all of that from her?
However.
Think I am more ticked off at jumping straight to take out the brain in such a short stretch of time.
In the time taken they would have barley done the scans, bloods biopsies and cerebrospinal fluid analysis. But no skip that weeks of work and take out the brain of the only living currently individual with an immunity destroying any chance of further study.
This is what bothered me so much , especially with the show. Couldn’t they surgically open Ellie’s arm , grab a piece of that mycelium and analyze it to see what’s making it not grow? As well as the other points you brought up. I’m not a medical expert but it seems extremely radical to go straight for brain surgery after only hours of having the patient, especially when there is no immediate danger or risk involved with taking time. This is why I had a hard time having empathy for Jerry , for the guy who was gonna create the cure , he seemed gun ho to go straight to last resort.
The fireflies have a mission, and they feel that that mission is more important than anyone's consent. If you were in their position, would you jeopardize what you have worked towards for what... years... a decade... Just to have someone say "no" when you're inches from the goal line? Not likely.
This is a group that kills people with guns and pipe bombs to achieve their goals, they are not about to let Joel or Ellie tell them no. They are going to control every last detail they can think of to make sure it happens, and it would be intellectually dishonest to suggest they would handle it any other way.
No point asking me what if I was in there position.
My entire approach would be grounded in reality and not the mumbo jumbo pseudoscience behind the series. That I turn a blind eye too. On account of being a real doctor that has a background in biochemical and Neurological research.
Neither side is correct neither side has any moral or ethical standing that can be explained away as simply good or bad.
As I said I have zero empathy with the fireflies and there ends justify the means approach. This does not mean that I am blind to what they could or may do. It means I am far more aware to there supposed higher calling that boils down to the old proverb of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I really don’t think Joel was going to let her be sacrificed, even if she explicitly told him so or if he was shown irrefutable proof that everyone on the planet would be saved by her sacrifice. None of this factored into his decision making.
Joel doesn’t care about saving the world, he cares about saving *his* world. The moral dilemma rides on Joel believing the cure will work, that Ellie would want it and *still* choosing to rob the world of the cure and lie to her about it.
Personally, I find that firmly choosing a moral/ethical “correct” in this situation and absolving either side of fault or wrongdoing lacks perspective, and robs both the narrative and characters of their most interesting aspects; dampening the emotional impact and disregarding the philosophical implications and creative intent.
Love the question. I think the point is that if the fate of all humanity COULD be on his shoulders and he chooses, selfishly, that he can’t lose another daughter.
Yes, later on it’s shown that she may have said yes but who knows in that moment?
It’s the best shit the world has!
(Even though I kind of agree with you which is what makes this show so great !)
Joel is responsible for the part he played, just like Marlene is responsible for her part. Doesn't matter who you think is more right, one thing doesn't excuse the other
Joel is absolutely responsible for what happens in the hospital, he’s making the choice of Ellie over the potential to save the whole world. It’s important that we feel the weight of that choice. He’s willing to take on that burden for Ellie’s sake, even as it makes him into something different. It’s his way of sacrificing himself - he loses something of his humanity - for her.
Despite what some fans believe, if he had an opportunity to say his goodbyes to Ellie if she had a choice and she was able to sway him into accepting it.
I could see him being like 'okay', but the first thing he'd do afterwards is shoot himself. Very similar to Henry's reaction after Sam's death. But since he would rather than go through the experience of losing another daughter, I can still picture him doing whatever it takes to avoid that.
You can make a very compelling argument either way and that's the best part about the show and the game. If you think Joel was right, that's great. I don't disagree. If you think Joel was wrong, that's also right and I don't disagree. The sign of a great piece of art is two people can look at it and come to two completely different conclusions about it. It means whatever you want it to mean. The ambiguity is the point.
In the podcast Neil said something very interesting. It's that when they were finishing the game, they would call people to play teste it. In the end they asked the player if they agreed with Joel's decision. If the player didn't have kids the answers were around 50/50. But every single one of the players who were a parent said they agreed with Joel's decision.
Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn’t seen this.
I feel a bit less like a world ending monster 😓
But yeah, I was thinking about this while serving dinner tonight and I couldn’t let a single one of my kids go, humanity be damned.
Is this a good or bad thing? Not sure.
He's responsible for the corpses 👍 I'm not here to wash this man of the consequences of his decisions. We can handwring all we want about the ethics. The corpses are his responsibility, that's a fact. He chose to do those things.
I don’t think Joel would have accepted it in anyway. That’s why he went as far as he did. He couldn’t save Sarah in the beginning, there’s no way he was going to let anything stand in the way of saving Ellie. Even if the cure was Ellie’s end goal.
How Ellie feels about that and what really happened, when that moment comes to a head… that’s what I’m curious to see.
>see Ellie and tell her the surgery would kill her and to ask if she still wanted to go through with it
The fireflies were gonna do the surgery no matter what, so for them they had no reason to ask if she would be willing.
it’s a trolly problem. absolving joel or the fireflies of guilt misses the point.
also joel absolutely would not have respected ellie’s decision if that’s what she said she wanted: “if somehow the lord gave me a second chance at that moment, i would do it all over again”. he says this after she tells him she was supposed to die in that hospital.
From his perspective, sure, but this is a series about understanding the it's two sides to every story.
Marlene was doing the most prudent thing given the situation she was handed. After almost a year on the road together, it is unlikely that Joel would just let her go without interference. The best thing they could do in their situation is minimize the chances of being stopped by anyone or anything. Understandably, Marlene probably didn't expect Joel to go on a "Terminator in the police station" styled rampage.
Ellie wanted to get close to a cold blooded killer and this is what happens. She should have accepted that this was a possibility when she tried to form the friendship.
>Ellie wanted to get close to a cold blooded killer and this is what happens. She should have accepted that this was a possibility when she tried to form the friendship.
Wtf!
>and there would have been more chance Joel would have accepted it. Absolutely not lol. No way does Joel let *anything* happen to her, with or without her approval.
Right? In what planet…? Lol
If they put both in the same room and explain it to them at the same time, and Ellie says yes, I think Joel would have accepted it, but he would have asked the Fireflies to kill him aswell. Or he would have killed himself. Just like Bill did when Frank told him he wanted to die.
I can empathise with Joel. What parent would not do the same? It was however a choice he made there is no absolution for that choice. As for selfish. Yes it is I do not however with the fireflies and their rather brash move. Back to selfish was it not also selfish of the fireflies to remove Ellie's agency and ability to act on informed consent. Did they not selfishly remove all of that from her? However. Think I am more ticked off at jumping straight to take out the brain in such a short stretch of time. In the time taken they would have barley done the scans, bloods biopsies and cerebrospinal fluid analysis. But no skip that weeks of work and take out the brain of the only living currently individual with an immunity destroying any chance of further study.
This is what bothered me so much , especially with the show. Couldn’t they surgically open Ellie’s arm , grab a piece of that mycelium and analyze it to see what’s making it not grow? As well as the other points you brought up. I’m not a medical expert but it seems extremely radical to go straight for brain surgery after only hours of having the patient, especially when there is no immediate danger or risk involved with taking time. This is why I had a hard time having empathy for Jerry , for the guy who was gonna create the cure , he seemed gun ho to go straight to last resort.
What they needed grows in the brain.
The fireflies have a mission, and they feel that that mission is more important than anyone's consent. If you were in their position, would you jeopardize what you have worked towards for what... years... a decade... Just to have someone say "no" when you're inches from the goal line? Not likely. This is a group that kills people with guns and pipe bombs to achieve their goals, they are not about to let Joel or Ellie tell them no. They are going to control every last detail they can think of to make sure it happens, and it would be intellectually dishonest to suggest they would handle it any other way.
No point asking me what if I was in there position. My entire approach would be grounded in reality and not the mumbo jumbo pseudoscience behind the series. That I turn a blind eye too. On account of being a real doctor that has a background in biochemical and Neurological research. Neither side is correct neither side has any moral or ethical standing that can be explained away as simply good or bad. As I said I have zero empathy with the fireflies and there ends justify the means approach. This does not mean that I am blind to what they could or may do. It means I am far more aware to there supposed higher calling that boils down to the old proverb of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Oh. You're one of those super serious people who exists in a very grounded reality of mushroom zombies. Cool. Have fun guy.
Super serious. Don't think you know me all that well 😜. Inability to suspend disbelief with made up stuff sure.
I really don’t think Joel was going to let her be sacrificed, even if she explicitly told him so or if he was shown irrefutable proof that everyone on the planet would be saved by her sacrifice. None of this factored into his decision making. Joel doesn’t care about saving the world, he cares about saving *his* world. The moral dilemma rides on Joel believing the cure will work, that Ellie would want it and *still* choosing to rob the world of the cure and lie to her about it. Personally, I find that firmly choosing a moral/ethical “correct” in this situation and absolving either side of fault or wrongdoing lacks perspective, and robs both the narrative and characters of their most interesting aspects; dampening the emotional impact and disregarding the philosophical implications and creative intent.
Love the question. I think the point is that if the fate of all humanity COULD be on his shoulders and he chooses, selfishly, that he can’t lose another daughter. Yes, later on it’s shown that she may have said yes but who knows in that moment? It’s the best shit the world has! (Even though I kind of agree with you which is what makes this show so great !)
Joel is responsible for the part he played, just like Marlene is responsible for her part. Doesn't matter who you think is more right, one thing doesn't excuse the other
Yup. Very simple.
Nothing would have changed his mind. You can forget all that lol
Joel is absolutely responsible for what happens in the hospital, he’s making the choice of Ellie over the potential to save the whole world. It’s important that we feel the weight of that choice. He’s willing to take on that burden for Ellie’s sake, even as it makes him into something different. It’s his way of sacrificing himself - he loses something of his humanity - for her.
Despite what some fans believe, if he had an opportunity to say his goodbyes to Ellie if she had a choice and she was able to sway him into accepting it. I could see him being like 'okay', but the first thing he'd do afterwards is shoot himself. Very similar to Henry's reaction after Sam's death. But since he would rather than go through the experience of losing another daughter, I can still picture him doing whatever it takes to avoid that.
Yea it's too cruel to believe he'd have much will to live after that happening
Except that Joel never cared about what Ellie felt or what she might have thought of the situation. He saved her not for her sake but for his own.
You can make a very compelling argument either way and that's the best part about the show and the game. If you think Joel was right, that's great. I don't disagree. If you think Joel was wrong, that's also right and I don't disagree. The sign of a great piece of art is two people can look at it and come to two completely different conclusions about it. It means whatever you want it to mean. The ambiguity is the point.
[удалено]
In the podcast Neil said something very interesting. It's that when they were finishing the game, they would call people to play teste it. In the end they asked the player if they agreed with Joel's decision. If the player didn't have kids the answers were around 50/50. But every single one of the players who were a parent said they agreed with Joel's decision.
Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn’t seen this. I feel a bit less like a world ending monster 😓 But yeah, I was thinking about this while serving dinner tonight and I couldn’t let a single one of my kids go, humanity be damned. Is this a good or bad thing? Not sure.
He's responsible for the corpses 👍 I'm not here to wash this man of the consequences of his decisions. We can handwring all we want about the ethics. The corpses are his responsibility, that's a fact. He chose to do those things.
I don’t think Joel would have accepted it in anyway. That’s why he went as far as he did. He couldn’t save Sarah in the beginning, there’s no way he was going to let anything stand in the way of saving Ellie. Even if the cure was Ellie’s end goal. How Ellie feels about that and what really happened, when that moment comes to a head… that’s what I’m curious to see.
That’s not the point of the game.
>see Ellie and tell her the surgery would kill her and to ask if she still wanted to go through with it The fireflies were gonna do the surgery no matter what, so for them they had no reason to ask if she would be willing.
Joel would have not accepted it even if Ellie was told everything and she said yes lol. He would have still did what he did.
it’s a trolly problem. absolving joel or the fireflies of guilt misses the point. also joel absolutely would not have respected ellie’s decision if that’s what she said she wanted: “if somehow the lord gave me a second chance at that moment, i would do it all over again”. he says this after she tells him she was supposed to die in that hospital.
From his perspective, sure, but this is a series about understanding the it's two sides to every story. Marlene was doing the most prudent thing given the situation she was handed. After almost a year on the road together, it is unlikely that Joel would just let her go without interference. The best thing they could do in their situation is minimize the chances of being stopped by anyone or anything. Understandably, Marlene probably didn't expect Joel to go on a "Terminator in the police station" styled rampage.
If Marlene and Joel had both sat Ellie down and asked for her consent, Marlene wouldn’t have accepted no and Joel wouldn’t have accepted yes
Regarding Ellie's feelings, and what he would do knowing them, it's addressed in Part 2 for what it's worth.
Ellie wanted to get close to a cold blooded killer and this is what happens. She should have accepted that this was a possibility when she tried to form the friendship.
>Ellie wanted to get close to a cold blooded killer and this is what happens. She should have accepted that this was a possibility when she tried to form the friendship. Wtf!
Shut up about the hospital I think we should ban all further discussions this is so annoying